Dogville

[VoR]

I watched this again last night. Wondering what people here made of it, I think a lot of people who might not otherwise watch Lars Von Trier movies saw this one because of Nicole Kidman being in it. God it's dark. I do love the whole Brechtian style of it, really interesting to see that done in a modern day film with big name stars in it.

*SPOILERS*




My major criticism of Von Trier is that he's a very cruel director. I think the film's ending would have been better if we'd just been left with Grace's decision to have the townspeople murdered, particularly her chilling revenge against Vera, and then heard the gunfire and seen the flames from the car. There was absolutely no need to then show us the gangsters shooting a baby, even in the non-gory way they did it. That kind of harrowing moviemaking worked in Dancer In The Dark because that whole film is building up to the tragedy and it's incredibly upsetting and powerful. I thought the shooting scenes in Dogville were just unpleasent and unnecessary. The only one we really needed to see was Grace deciding to shoot Tom herself.

I suppose that's just the way he is though. No wonder his female leads all HATE him. :D

Oh and I really need to see "Breaking The Waves".

[cwej]

'Breaking The Waves' is not very good methinks...

'Dogville' is a tad too long in my opinion, but otherwise it's wonderfully original. I love the Brechtian style of it too - having said that, the acting isn't Brechtian at all, just the direction and use of narration. The acting is pretty much the opposite.

'Dancer In The Dark' remains the best of the 3.

[cwej]

I tried to watch some really old Von Trier movie off Lovefilm... it was SO SO DULL I gave up after 30 minutes.

[VoR]

'Breaking The Waves' is not very good methinks...

'Dogville' is a tad too long in my opinion, but otherwise it's wonderfully original. I love the Brechtian style of it too - having said that, the acting isn't Brechtian at all, just the direction and use of narration. The acting is pretty much the opposite.

'Dancer In The Dark' remains the best of the 3.

Well yeah I'd agree it's actually more Brecht-inspired thand total loyal to the form. If it was completely Brechtian we'd have been told in the final chapter headings about Grace's decision.

[cwej]

Oh yes, I'd not NOTICED that... the end comes as a surprise...

[spicebrain]

*SPOILER ALERT*, I guess.

Hmmm, see now this is the film that single-handedly restored my faith in modern cinema when I was getting bored. Thus, we can assume its at least partially responsible for my woefully obsessed state at present. It also stands as my favourite film of the 21st century, and my 4th favourite ever. So "summarising" my thoughts on this is a task and a half. But I'll try anyway.

The aforementioned Brecht-inspired aesthetics of von Trier's visual style in this are a hoot, and certainly something of a curiosity, no doubt about it. Nonetheless, if the intention was to remind the viewer of the film's artificiality then this is perhaps one area where von Trier failed. Of course Dogville isn't reality, but the narrative flow is so absorbing, and the actors' performances so mesmerising, that I for one completely bought into the world created by the film. I can't help but feel that the focus on these aspects served as von Trier's primary intentions. I mean, how can you possibly feel emotionally estranged from a character like Grace?

Anyway, what I (unsurprisingly) find most brilliant about Dogville is the allegory. Certainly, von Trier's mise-en-scene (or lack of) plays a crucial part in his wider themes. Note that when Grace is getting raped by Chuck, Lar's choice of shot expands to focus on what the other residents are doing - something that is clearly visible as a result of his artistic choices. Consequently the scene serves to hint at the ignorance of the townsfolk, and raises questions about whether their ignorance is entirely explicable - they're in their homes, but err, their homes have no walls. It's implied that they "see" Grace's abduction as much as we do. That's a nice touch, IMO.

Regardless of what the director himself may say (von Trier seems to have an inherent need to be the enfant provocateur of cinema), the film IS quite clearly anti-American. The end credits, marvellously played out to Bowie's "Young Americans", simply reaffirm this. Even so, the film is most devastating in its condemnation of human nature in general. Fact is, Dogville could indeed be anywhere in the world. The title - DOGville - as well as the fact that the only thing to survive at the end is the town dog - raises questions about our own "animal" instincts and just how humane we actually are. Grace's radical change of heart at the end shows that even the "good" can succumb. A wider reference to the corruption of society in general? Is the greed of the townsmen meant to symbolise capitalism? If so, does their demise symbolise its eventual fall, and is von Trier then infusing Marxist elements into his work?

That's just one trail of thought. The film raises many questions, both about ourselves and wider society, and leaves the audience to ponder them. If I considered every single line of questioning then I'd be here for an age, and I'm already rambling (bring on the accusations of pretentiousness). However, I truly believe that Dogville is an exceptional slice of cinema (duh), and I think that it's so refreshing to see this kind of daring, experimental film being made. We need more films like this.

Having said that, I'm not liking the look of Manderlay. Oh, and Breaking the Waves is a great movie VoR, worth checking out for Emily Watson alone - she gives what is surely one of the greatest female performances in cinematic history.

[cwej]

I didn't think you sounded pretentious there.

But I didn't GET Breaking The Waves I don't think... :(

[spicebrain]

Lordy, you're tempting me into "thesis mode" again, but alas I'll resist. I think that with a film like Breaking the Waves, it's important to "feel" the text first, and "understand" it later. I think there's a bit of an unfortunate need to rationalise everything that we see on-screen as an audience sometimes (I suffer from it as much as anyone), but a film like BTW works as such a spiritual and emotionally affecting experience if you simply allow yourself to get lost within it. Plus, I find the character of Bess just... well, amazing really.

But of course, to each their own and all. I certainly don't love it THAT much anyway!

[Sheena]

I cant be bothered going into it too much, but by god this is magnificent. Kidman, whom I already adore, is spectacular- I ached for her by just before the fire...

[funky]

I thought this thread was about CERTAIN posters I won't NAME

[VoR]

Am I the only one who was shocked by Grace's decision? I mean certain inhabitants of the town were obviously evil, but the fact that she chooses to have the children, oh whom only one has (immaturely) done her any harm, and including a BABY, just shocked me and made me think she'd become as bad as the town was, a vengeful, evil creature. Also can we really compare the behaviour of the rapists and Vera to the behaviour of, say, Ma Ginger?

I know it's basically an allegorical story and maybe i'm humanising/simplifying it too much, but having pitied Grace throughout the film, by the end I was repulsed by her.

[Sheena]

That is the point. She was broken down so badly that she became the people she despises so badly...

The abused child who turns into the child abuser, for example

Remember as well this was von Trier's thinly veiled stance against the American government and their political stances at the time...

[dUb]

MASTERPIECE

[spicebrain]

OK, now this makes me feel as if I've missed the boat somewhat. My attachment to the character of Grace was so strong that in the end, I was rooting for her to bring destruction to Dogville. I've always felt that that was one of the most brilliant aspects of von Trier's conclusion, a complete manipulation of the essential "good" of his audience - thus forcing us to question our own humanity?

Either way, it's clear that Grace succeeds in acting as a pivotal force regarding our reactions to the film.

[cwej]

That is the point. She was broken down so badly that she became the people she despises so badly...

The abused child who turns into the child abuser, for example

Remember as well this was von Trier's thinly veiled stance against the American government and their political stances at the time...

Exactly. Of COURSE that was the POINT... She was innocent before she came to the town - when she left she was as bad as the rest of them. She certainly was not a GOOD PERSON at the end.

[cwej]

Nicole Kidman is SUPERB in the movie, but Patricia Clarkson steals her scenes MAGNIFICENTLY for me...

[dUb]

Slightly OT: Is anyone excited about Manderlay? As much as I ADORE Dogville, I'm a bit 'meh' about it.

[cwej]

Bryce Dallas Howard is a bit of a letdown replacement for Nicole Kidman isn't she...

I'm interested to see it - I get the impression Lauren Bacall's part is bigger in this one and I hope so...

But losing Nicole is a BIG problem and was always going to be.

[VoR]

OK, now this makes me feel as if I've missed the boat somewhat. My attachment to the character of Grace was so strong that in the end, I was rooting for her to bring destruction to Dogville. I've always felt that that was one of the most brilliant aspects of von Trier's conclusion, a complete manipulation of the essential "good" of his audience - thus forcing us to question our own humanity?

Either way, it's clear that Grace succeeds in acting as a pivotal force regarding our reactions to the film.

You're not alone at all. That was the impression I got both from your essay and a lot of messages at imdb.com about the film. I understood that the point of the film was that Grace is driven to her actions by her horrendous exploitation by the town, but the idea of rooting for her to murder a bunch of people is frankly alien to me, even in the medium of Cinema.

[cwej]

Well movies are all open to interpretation.... I felt the same as Shee and VOR. Watching those kids be shot dead is certainly not gonna make me like her character under ANY circumstances... Doesn't she say that if Vera can hold her tears back, the baby will be spared or something? It's fucking EVIL...

[VoR]

Well movies are all open to interpretation.... I felt the same as Shee and VOR. Watching those kids be shot dead is certainly not gonna make me like her character under ANY circumstances... Doesn't she say that if Vera can hold her tears back, the baby will be spared or something? It's fucking EVIL...

Exactly. It's one of the most sadistic and cruel things i've ever seen depicted in a film.

[cwej]

And no matter HOW nice they'd made her look throughout the first 3 hours of the movie - ANY character that does that in the last 5 minutes can look nothing more than a horrible person. Maybe she WASN'T a horrible person, but she certainly became one by the end. Forgiveness is a far greater strength than revenge, in my book.

[spicebrain]

Have to make it clear - I was absolutely repulsed by Grace's actions immediately AFTER seeing the film for the first time. And I don't think they're justified by any stretch of the imagination. It was only on my initial viewing of the film that I felt that the buggers deserved it.

I'm a bad bad person.

[cwej]

Maybe that's the point... maybe it's supposed to make you question the justification of the death penalty as a revenge tactic???

[spicebrain]

Hmm. I never considered the parallels with the death penalty, but I think that idea fits perfectly. Again, I'm very VERY anti-death penalty so that just makes my initial reaction even more horrifying. But I love that the film can manipulate my emotions to that extent? :masochistic:

Seriously, the discussion on this could be neverending, there's SO much going on in the film.

[Suomi]

ooh i really wanna see this now

[dUb]

Can we pollify this please?

BIG FAT TEN

[Sheena]

For those of you with Region 1 DVD Players, "Dogville" is $3.49 (or about £1.70) on Secondspin.com at the moment...

And it's free international shipping !

[Sheena]

As is "Birth" for that matter...

[jivafox]

It's amazing! I thought the whole premise was original and fresh, and the ending was brilliant. I'm rarely shocked and it was such a cheap ploy but it worked.

[Suedehead]

Absolutely fantastic film. Von Trier remains a cunt of the highest order.

[cwej]

Absolutely fantastic film. Von Trier remains a cunt of the highest order.

:D

[Ellie]

OMG, WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

I saw it on Film Four recently. It's excrutiating.

[cwej]

You really give it a 0?!?! I think you need to explain that mark! :D

[Ellie]

DO I? It's RIGHT there on screen! It's like explaining why you're leaving the room when a dog farts.