Stalin vs Hitler

[Sebastian Flyte]

OK - which would you say was the worst in terms of most brutal, ruthless, murderous or destructive or just generally was the biggest bastard.
Classic history debate. Or to put it another way - which was the worst - the Holocaust or the Great Stalinist Terror/mass famines?

And it is possible to quantify such things?

[Ellie]

Stalin had a better tash.

[Agnetha]

Stalin got away with it.

[Loufoque]

Stalin still has his fair share of fans in Russia. One woman I met even started welling up at the mention of his name. She said she cried for two days when he died. For some reason I'm more sympathetic to him after being there.

Stalin's purges were indiscriminate and left the vast majority of Russia untouched; Hitler tried to exterminate groups en masse. It's a case of irrational paranoia vs irrational hatred. I know which I prefer.

[Tigerclaw]

I won't concentrate on the moral aspects, as they were both clearly cunts. From a practical standpoint, Stalin drove his country forwards (although not politically, it was all downhill there), from a third-rate exploited backwater agrarian nation, into a vast military superpower with nuclear weapons, that could easily have dominated all of Europe, in a mere two decades. Regardless of the morality of the purges and the terror, which were undoubtably vile, he actually got things done and dragged Russia through industrialisation. Hitler didn't, he inherited an already developed country and managed to fuck everything up. Picking on the Jews was his worst decision, the morality of it aside, they made up a significant part of the intelligensia and business community. The Nuremburg Laws drove out (or killed) the bestest and brightest. The Nazi state had the appearance of being efficient and orderly, but was thoroughly corrupt and pretty chaotic. Oh yeah, and Uncle Joe was on the winning side.



Mao was the worst by far though. Killed more people than both of them, was considerably more "insane", AND held China back at least 40 years...

[Beverley]

Mao was the worst by far though. Killed more people than both of them, was considerably more "insane", AND held China back at least 40 years...

Yup. Particularly strange then, that the people on Mainland China today STILL refuse to allow a word said against him. Believe me - I've tried and bore the consequences.

[Madison]

What, no poll?

[Commotion]

Mao killed the most - 60 million
Stalin killed 45 million
HItler killed 40 million

I think the answer as to who was the worst is a bit silly (I mean Mao or Hitler probably never killed anyone with their own hands) but in terms of numbers victims Mao was the worst.

[Sheena]

You're ALL forgetting LULU

[Sebastian Flyte]

Mao killed the most - 60 million
Stalin killed 45 million
HItler killed 40 million

I think the answer as to who was the worst is a bit silly (I mean Mao or Hitler probably never killed anyone with their own hands) but in terms of numbers victims Mao was the worst.

But what about the issue of motivation. I mean millions died as a result of Mao & Stalin's economic policies - forced familes/collectivisation/Gulags etc. However with the Holocaust the PRIMARY motive was to build human death factories & kill people - forced labour was a sideline. This is the key reason why many historians like Martin Gilbert or Daniel Jonah Goldhagen argue that there is something unique about the holocaust that makes it worse.

[Commotion]

Oh I know that Hitler's motivations were the most evil but 60 and 45 million dead is a preposterously huge number of victims as well you know.

[Sebastian Flyte]

Oh I know that Hitler's motivations were the most evil but 60 and 45 million dead is a preposterously huge number of victims as well you know.

I can count :manson:

[abnormal]

What about Pol Pot? He was pretty dreadful! Same with the North Korea's current dictator - Kim Jong Il? - whose people starves because he wants shiny bombs.

[Madison]

To be honest, I'd rather have a shiny new bomb than a fewer extra peasants.

[Jimmy]

I MUCH prefer Hitler, as he had better rallies, and he just seemed to put more energy into his onstage persona. And also, he was a total nutjob from the beginning, whereas Stalin seems a bit more sane, making his actions somehow seem more apalling.

[Jimmy]

But what about the issue of motivation. I mean millions died as a result of Mao & Stalin's economic policies - forced familes/collectivisation/Gulags etc. However with the Holocaust the PRIMARY motive was to build human death factories & kill people - forced labour was a sideline. This is the key reason why many historians like Martin Gilbert or Daniel Jonah Goldhagen argue that there is something unique about the holocaust that makes it worse.

Well, they are talking utter shite. To kill 5 million more is still 5 million more people, human lives. Just because they were silly peasants who wanted to continue growing turnips, does not make them any the less important than educated German Jews. Unless you are a complete racist.

[Sebastian Flyte]

To be honest, I'd rather have a shiny new bomb than a fewer extra peasants.

Or in other words you consider the deaths that Stalin's regime caused to be a price worth paying for the economic & military modernisation of the USSR.
Presumably it hasn't occured to you that the 'few less peasants' was at least 7 million starved to death in the famines the regime created or that the Gulags were stuffed with people from all walks of life including managers, intellectuals and even the military?

[Sebastian Flyte]

Well, they are talking utter shite. To kill 5 million more is still 5 million more people, human lives. Just because they were silly peasants who wanted to continue growing turnips, does not make them any the less important than educated German Jews. Unless you are a complete racist.

I agree with you - I was just saying that there is an argument that the difference in motivation means that there is something uniquely horrific about the holocaust that goes beyond extent of deaths. Personally I think the uniqueness debate in holocaust historiography is a gigantic blind alley that too much time & energy is spent on instead of analysing other issues surrounding it.

[Jimmy]

It's a very interesting moral debate -is it more evil to kill someone because you have a pathological hatred of their race and kind, or to kill them simply because they are getting in your way. It's not an easy question to answer.

[Sebastian Flyte]

It's a very interesting moral debate -is it more evil to kill someone because you have a pathological hatred of their race and kind, or to kill them simply because they are getting in your way. It's not an easy question to answer.

Both equally bad surely

[Sebastian Flyte]

You're ALL forgetting LULU

*puts 'Shout' on*

[Madison]

Or in other words you consider the deaths that Stalin's regime caused to be a price worth paying for the economic & military modernisation of the USSR.
Presumably it hasn't occured to you that the 'few less peasants' was at least 7 million starved to death in the famines the regime created or that the Gulags were stuffed with people from all walks of life including managers, intellectuals and even the military?
I was talking about North Korea.

[Sebastian Flyte]

I was talking about North Korea.

Oh

[Madison]

Indeed

[Sebastian Flyte]

Indeed

Still a foolish point though :angel:

[Madison]

Probably, but I still win the argument by default.

"You forgot Poland"

[Sebastian Flyte]

Probably, but I still win the argument by default.

"You forgot Poland"

Eh what? I presume you mean that if Poland had had more shiny bombs they could've protected themselves from Stalin & Hitler or something like that :confused:

[Madison]

Nah, the Bush vs Kerry debates. Kerry made a very good point about the lack of countries in the "coalition of the willing" - but forgot Poland in the list. Bush ignored the point of the comment and destroyed Kerry simply by pointing out the mistake of forgetting Poland. Bush went on to win the presidency.

[Sebastian Flyte]

Nah, the Bush vs Kerry debates. Kerry made a very good point about the lack of countries in the "coalition of the willing" - but forgot Poland in the list. Bush ignored the point of the comment and destroyed Kerry simply by pointing out the mistake of forgetting Poland. Bush went on to win the presidency.

AH I see...

ho hum - you win

[Jimmy]

There is also a case to be made that Hitler was unaware, or at least did not want to be made aware, of the full extent of the Holocaust. Though even if he didn't, he would undoubtedly have approved.

[Christian]

There is also a case to be made that Hitler was unaware, or at least did not want to be made aware, of the full extent of the Holocaust. Though even if he didn't, he would undoubtedly have approved.REALLY? Seems highly UNLIKELY to me but I have to say I've never read a decent biography of the man. I should read that 2 parter at some stage.

[PJL]

There is an old Buddist saying that the action is not (as) important, it's the thought/idea behind it. In that context, killing millions of people as a byproduct of achievnig rapid industrialisation is less evil then deliberately killnig millions of people because of a pathalogical hatred of their kind.

[Jimmy]

There is an old Buddist saying that the action is not (as) important, it's the thought/idea behind it.

Tell that to the people who died..

[Sebastian Flyte]

There is an old Buddist saying that the action is not (as) important, it's the thought/idea behind it. In that context, killing millions of people as a byproduct of achievnig rapid industrialisation is less evil then deliberately killnig millions of people because of a pathalogical hatred of their kind.

I disagree with that buddhist statement. Also you are assuming that 'rapid industrialisation' is in itself a well intentioned thing.

[Jimmy]

REALLY? Seems highly UNLIKELY to me but I have to say I've never read a decent biography of the man. I should read that 2 parter at some stage.

Mass extermination was never really a pre-ordained plan in my opinion -though there is a school of thought that says it was. There were all sorts of things touted -shipping to Madagascar, shoving them eastwards, etc. But as the invasions of Poland, Russia etc happened, the Nazi's found themselves with millions of eastern Jews on their hands, and shortages of food and other vital goods -the 'final solution' can be seen as a build up of events rather than something planned from the beginning. I wrote an essay on it in uni, but I seem to remember it being on the uni computers not this one.

[Sebastian Flyte]

Thats the Hans Mommsen/Martin Broszat interpretation - I'd agree with it.

[Madison]

OT: Didn't the Nazis have lovely uniforms.

[Sebastian Flyte]

I don't get the fetish for Nazi uniforms AT ALL

[Madison]

what fetish? - I just said they were nice.

[Sebastian Flyte]

It carried an implication :cool: