2020 Democratic Primaries

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by Mugatu, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. dUb

    dUb TRIUMPHANT (GET 'EM)

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    27,752
    Beto has announced! :disco::horny:
     
  2. Jark

    Jark User

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    29,293
    can't wait for Beto to be PRES :disco:
     
  3. Iguana

    Iguana One two CHA CHA CHA

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,712
    Location:
    Between war and denial
    He seems a bit FLAKY, which is surely the opposite of what you need to beat Trump?
     
  4. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    He's a likeable guy, and by far the hottest candidate so far (apart from Garfield), but nobody seems to know what his actual beliefs are beyond wanting to win. He did come out in support of legalising dank kush but he's a moderate in a leftist's clothing, a bit like Obama.
     
  5. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Congratulations on the sex, Cory Booker and Rosario Dawson:

     
  6. COB

    COB Hog Frenzy

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,292
    Important to keep in mind re Betomania:
     
    Mugatu likes this.
  7. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    It's slightly odd that Robert Hussein O'Rourke went from refusing to release his fundraising total to suddenly outpacing everyone else. He's obviously not lying about the numbers but I do wonder how many big donors put him over the top and why the campaign isn't saying how many people donated.

    Feels like he's Bernie's main rival though, all I can conclude is that B*to must now be destroyed.

     
  8. Jark

    Jark User

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    29,293
    his voting record on the environment is atrocious, unfortunately
     
  9. ameraal

    ameraal true love is making a comeback

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    42,055
    so is he a good guy or just a nice looking/talking guy? i can never be bothered to invest any interest in the primaries...
     
  10. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    I'm sure he's a nice guy personally, but he's the perfect face for the kind of ineffective but feel-good liberal status quo politics that I really dislike.

    In terms of his positions on stuff, he's now ditched Medicare for All (despite building a base off the back of it in Texas), he receives huge amounts of money from the oil and gas industries and he's voted for a lot of Republican bills despite representing a safe Democratic district.

    He's not the worst person on the list but he's the best example of style over substance by a long way. And I wish he'd stop standing on top of tables all the time, it's making my obsessive hygiene impulses really flare up.

    [​IMG]
     
    ameraal likes this.
  11. Kate

    Kate most die in your bedroom

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    60,014
    Location:
    Morrissey
    A (fairly liberal, I thought) American on my FB posted this. LOLZ

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    :D

    I wouldn't be surprised if they were a liberal to be honest, some of the SEETHING FURY that the online #resistance people have about anyone on the left is ridiculous.

    It's always directed to the left as well, I'll bet they didn't mention Joe Manchin refusing to vote for LGBT equality this week.
     
  13. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    I really like Cortez as a Representative and a member of Congress. She does a fabulous job keeping old cunts in check, especially those who are used to not being questioned. But hell to the FUCK no to her being President. I love her as an administrative power, not really as a decision-maker.
     
  14. Mats

    Mats User

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,571
    well she's not running, so
     
  15. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    She's probably the best person in Congress (apart from on foreign policy, Ro Khanna and Ilhan Omar are both very good). Even beyond the viral videos, she's pushed the Green New Deal into the conversation more than any other politician.

    I know she's said a couple silly things on Twitter but I think she correctly realises that radical decisions are genuinely needed, especially on environmental stuff. She's a big net positive for the whole left-wing movement and I hope she becomes president at some point, as long as she sticks to her views.
     
    Gangsta Nancy Lam likes this.
  16. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    YANG!

     
  17. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival Missss Vaaaaaanjie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    48,557
    Location:
    Sarajevo
    CUNT
     
  18. ameraal

    ameraal true love is making a comeback

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    42,055
    i keep thinking of cortez as the universal balance's answer to trump. she seems to be striking a chord with people in the way he does.

    i like her but i think she's a bit too gimmicky for me to take seriously but then she's really quite young still, isn't she?
     
  19. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    I'm a painfully sober academic Marxist but the left does need a few gimmicks sometimes. It definitely helps that AOC (usually) doesn't talk like a politician and she can play the celebrity game a little, although it does also worry me slightly that she'll end up watering down her positions because of that.
     
  20. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    She'll have to. Americans hate anything that remotely resembles a nanny state. And so far a good majority of her proposed policies seem to be centered around eroding economic freedom. I don't think that's a solution for the current economic inequality. A bipartisan compromise, LIKE THEY USED TO DO, would be nice.

    I'd love to see a move away from stock insurance, where the investors basically have everyone's lives in their hands, and towards mutual insurance. The companies still make profit, they still contribute to the economy, they still allow economic freedom and all decisions are made for the benefit of the insurance companies' policyholders. Most importantly, profits are kept WITHIN the company instead of just handed back to sleazy investors who really don't give a shit about their policyholders.

    I think it could appeal to both parties as ACTUAL healthcare reform.

    But like I said, I still love AOC as a congresswoman. SShe's like an administrative hawk.
     
  21. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    But who exactly has the economic freedom you're talking about? People like to believe that anyone can follow the rules, get good grades and become successful but it doesn't work like that so much anymore. I don't live in America but that's literally my own personal experience right now.

    It's not economic freedom if only rich people are able to enjoy it. Nobody should have to work two or three jobs to live, or have to sell all their stuff to afford medical bills. I think seeing her ideas as an erosion is exactly what billionaires are trying to trick us into believing, she just wants everyone to have that freedom.

    If you see healthcare as a human right, then I think that should take priority over insurance companies' profit margins. People's health is more important than markets. Even then, the type of healthcare system that AOC supports would actually reduce government spending.

    Bipartisanship is a noble idea but we've seen with healthcare, the Democrats are full of spineless moral cowards like Obama and the Republicans are totally ideological on the issue. The debate has always bent to the right because of that, a shift in the other direction is well overdue.
     
    ameraal and COB like this.
  22. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Why not have the mutual insurance provider be the actual government itself? You could have one single programme, lose the market-driven bureaucracy of Obamacare and direct some of the exorbitant amounts that people pay private insurers into a company that the whole country has a stake in.
     
  23. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    I certainly have that economic freedom right now. I like shopping around for my healthcare. I like deciding for myself what my health needs are. And I like that my private insurance doesn't require me to wait at a public institute. And I don't even have a fancy job. My salary is extremely average. It's not perfect but competition has worked very well here. Workplaces that do not offer benefits struggle to attract and keep employees. Insurance companies that are too expensive have a limited client base.
    Again, as it stands it's not perfect but I'd much rather have the current system worked on than getting the government to baby everyone and just forcing everyone to buy into it.

    No I don't believe healthcare is a human right. That's a lovely thought, but ultimately the world owes you nothing. Any good or service that you have to get someone else to do for you is by definition not a right. But what I DO believe is that healthcare insurance should always be firstly for the benefit of the policyholders, not for profit. That's why I like the idea of Mutual Insurance.

    Because I distrust them as much as I distrust corporations. The government has shown time and time again that they have just as much potential to abuse their power as corporations. I don't want corporations to have their power over people's health taken away only to be handed to the government. No thanks. Mutual insurance is a for-profit private company that it owned by the people. Not by investors or by the government. It's much more constitutional and democratic.
    I also think that mutual insurance is great for the social fabric. It has great opportunities to promote independent communities that don't need anyone's help or supervision.
     
  24. COB

    COB Hog Frenzy

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,292
    A lot of people aren't able to afford health insurance (or get it through their employer) though, what would be a good solution for them?
     
    Suomi and Mugatu like this.
  25. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Well, I'm glad that you're well-served by what you currently have. I hope it never happens to you but a lot of other people's health needs aren't as predictable, or they have pre-existing conditions, or they're trying to support a family on a low wage and can't afford their co-pay. Freedoms should also be universal by definition, and the current system doesn't seem to offer what you have to those people.

    I obviously disagree with you on the human right question, but to explain, I don't see it as a case of "the world" owing me anything, more a question of our moral priorities, especially when America essentially has an unlimited military budget. I know it sounds like hippy bullshit but the world is made of people, the invisible hand of the free market isn't God. I think we owe each other a lot more than what poor people in America are currently getting.

    Personally, I would feel more empowered against a government that I could democratically vote out than a corporate insurance industry that is effectively a race to the bottom. You're totally right that policy-holders should come first, but all for-profit insurance (corporate or mutual) relies on sustained economic growth to keep going.

    Obviously, mutual insurance is a small improvement on the current system but it's limited by design. How do you decide what type of care is covered? Would it be able to look after as many people as a bigger, federally-funded provider, especially when a lot of people need care at the same time? You clearly accept the idea of a provider owned by the people, it's not a big leap to a more comprehensive universal provider from there.
     
    Suomi, Kate and COB like this.
  26. Mugatu

    Mugatu Ladministrator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,185
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Who the fuck is scraeming "STOP WRITING ESSAYS" at my house. show yourself, coward. i will never stop writing essays
     
    Penelope, Kate and COB like this.
  27. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    100%. I don't think "Right" is quite the word, but "Opportunity". I'm a firm believer that if you're going to live in America, make use of the best economy in the world, live behind the strongest army in the world, have the privilege of enjoying the democracy and liberty that it gives you, then you are absolutely required to make sure that the people who make it what it is are healthy, educated and secure. And give them the FAIR opportunity to do so. That's why I love the idea of employer benefits.
    But totally socialized healthcare is just overkill for me. I don't want to rely totally on either on a nanny state or a money-hungry corporation. We should be able to create and provide our own insurance that puts healthcare first. Policies that promote that in the current system is what I'd like to see.

    That's because cunt investors hate it because the profit is marginal compared to what they're used to. If it's incentivized well and given room to growth, I think it could really work.
     
  28. Jark

    Jark User

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    29,293
    are we buying this Cory Booker and Rosario Dawson story that POPPED UP at the weekend and is suddenly getting a massive PR push?



    because it seems very much as if someone has noted that an ELIGIBLE BACHELOR couldn't POSSIBLY enter the white house without a first lady at his side
     
  29. Shirley

    Shirley Worra load of old SHIT

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    32,565
    A gay man called BUTTIGIEG? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT
     
  30. Mats

    Mats User

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,571
    :D

    sounds fabulous, darling!
     
    Ag, Penelope and COB like this.
  31. Penelope

    Penelope AND SHAVE OUR EYEBROWS

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    21,038
    Glad people are having to go on gameshows and launch Kickstarters for their parents dying of cancer so KindaCool can have a FABULOUS time shopping for healthcare! :disco:
     
    Kate, Ag, COB and 1 other person like this.
  32. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    Yes, in fact I specifically voted for that very option on the ballot. Because I'd rather see ANYTHING but a compromise.
     
  33. Suomi

    Suomi Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    42,972
    Then you’re a selfish arsehole
     
    Jark, Ag, Shirley and 1 other person like this.
  34. COB

    COB Hog Frenzy

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,292
    I've been trying to imagine what my family's recent experience would've been like without the NHS, and it's making my head spin.

    The bit that always makes me laugh is when US right wingers attack socialised healthcare by talking about how terrible it would be if DEATH PANELS got to decide who lives and dies, totally ignoring the fact the insurance companies are already doing this when they decide whether or not to cover people.
     
    Mugatu likes this.
  35. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    No that's just YOUR awful faulty logic. Just because you BELIEVE that something is a human right doesn't mean it is. I'm sure you think you're just such a good person and that you're only looking out for the good of humanity.
    If a healthcare is a right then it means you deserve free care whenever and wherever you want it from anyone and nobody's allowed to say anything.
    If you have to get someone else to do something for you, then it's CLEARLY not a right. You don't just deserve a service for free just because it's important to you. Why isn't food a "right", and therefore free? Why isn't shelter a "right" and therefore free? Why aren't clothes a "right" and therefore free?

    This is why the Left can be just as infuriating as the Right. That if you don't believe that people just DESERVE free stuff it means that you're a BAD PERSON. It's such faulty and dangerous logic.

    People have the right to the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY of healthcare, not the right to free services that doctors, nurses and other workers provide you. We should be focusing on making healthcare EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE to everyone, not yelling about what our "rights" are so that we can show everyone just how GOOD we are.
     
  36. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    Right. And THAT is what requires healthcare reform. It's making sure that insurance companies always prioritize health, before profit. People needs to become more people-lead and less investor-lead. And the people don't need either investors nor the government to do this.
     
  37. COB

    COB Hog Frenzy

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,292
    Not sure you're making the point you think you are, here...
     
    Suomi likes this.
  38. Ag

    Ag User

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    162,511
    Healthcare may not LITERALLY be a human right, but in the society we will live in, it CAN BE and SHOULD BE.
     
    Suomi likes this.
  39. Ag

    Ag User

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    162,511
    And what the FUCK is wrong with THAT?

    Jesus.
     
    Jark, Shirley and Suomi like this.
  40. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    9,695
    Because most of the time it's just self-righteousness in disguise. People are so quick to judge someone else as "selfish" just because they don't believe that everyone just deserves free shit. But hey, it makes them feel so good about themselves to point out how BAD everyone else is. It's the dumbest logic I've ever heard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019

Share This Page