50 dead in Orlando gay club massacre

RobotBoy · Jun 14, 2016

RaspberrySwirl said: ↑

I agree RB, but that last passage could be about any religion or culture.
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Of course. It was just an example but, in the UK, I don't think LGBT people from Christian families face the same lack of acceptance from their families, IN THE MAIN.

Loufoque · Jun 14, 2016

RobotBoy said: ↑

I don't wish for anyone to be persecuted for their religious beliefs, but it's nothing short of total denial to suggest that religion doesn't encourage and perpetuate homophobia.
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I suppose the reality is that if we subject Christianity to intense scrutiny and criticism with regards to homosexuality and illiberalism, we must do the same with all religions.

Ag · Jun 14, 2016

Loufoque said: ↑

I suppose the reality is that if we subject Christianity to intense scrutiny and criticism with regards to homosexuality and illiberalism, we must do the same with all religions.
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Must we? Christianity is the state religion (in the UK and most of Europe). Let's start there. It's not a one size fits all conundrum.

RaspberrySwirl · Jun 14, 2016

Loufoque said: ↑

I suppose the reality is that if we subject Christianity to intense scrutiny and criticism with regards to homosexuality and illiberalism, we must do the same with all religions.
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Exactly.

Loufoque · Jun 14, 2016

Ag said: ↑

Must we? Christianity is the state religion (in the UK and most of Europe). Let's start there. It's not a one size fits all conundrum.
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If we consider Muslims as equal citizens of the UK (as I do), I hold them to the same standard as Christian citizens. Otherwise, in my mind, that is just the racism of low expectations.

Ag · Jun 14, 2016

Loufoque said: ↑

If we consider Muslims as equal citizens of the UK (as I do), I hold them to the same standard as Christian citizens. Otherwise, in my mind, that is just the racism of low expectations.
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Oh I do, just that on a gloablised scale, the bases of Islam are almost without question deeply homophobic. You can't apply the same to the Church of England who practically preach from the Book of Kylie these days to the Islam, who are more, say... Eric Clapton.

Ag · Jun 14, 2016

I have always heard racism on the gay scene, as recently as when I was in Brighton. It's almost a case of putting your own lot on someone else.

Shirley · Jun 14, 2016

The CofE was always CHOCKA with QUEENS

Penelope · Jun 14, 2016

Ag said: ↑

I have always heard racism on the gay scene, as recently as when I was in Brighton. It's almost a case of putting your own lot on someone else.
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Quite. Nobody's denying there's a lot of homophobia prevalent within organised religion. Just that it isn't a reason to enact discriminatory measures back, and that we should also be pretty mindful we aren't talking from as high a pedestal as we'd like. I don't think anybody makes the argument 'it's just a preference' for Muslims who hold homophobic views; plenty do for gays who think it's at all acceptable to put 'no Asians' on their Grindr profile.

big ron · Jun 14, 2016

Yasir Qadhi said:

It has now been confirmed, by multiple sources, that Omar Mateen, the shooter in the Orlando massacre, was himself gay. He frequently visited the same club that he committed the massacre in, and he attempted to initiate dates on a famous gay-dating app.
Additionally, he was born and raised in America.
His wife, father and community have all claimed that he was not religious in the slightest.
Multiple eyewitness reports indicate that he would get drunk at the very club he committed the massacre in, and would have to be kicked out because of his unruly behavior.
Colleagues and acquaintances have mentioned that he was a loner, a social introvert, and prone to make violent statements and threats against other people.
His wife left him because he beat her and was physically abusive.
Yet, the media continues to ask questions about 'radical Islam' and about Islam's stance on homosexuality. What blatant hypocrisy!
He wasn't a 'radical Muslim'.
He was a mentally deranged psychopathic American closet homosexual who was battling with his sexual identity.
Instead of concentrating on his mental issues, and on the easy gun laws that our country is notorious for, politicians and media pundits wish to cast all of that aside, and choose the easier target of questioning his faith, and of Islam's stance on sexual issues.
The guy was mental, plain and simple. Islam's stance on homosexuality is IRRELEVANT to this massacre, period.
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Original post: https://www.facebook.com/yasir.qadh...67888299/10153923426453300/?type=3&permPage=1

Loufoque · Jun 14, 2016

Well that's a very partial view. But anyway, each to his own.

Penelope · Jun 14, 2016

Something being 'partial' isn't an argument against it. The idea that you shouldn't discriminate against gays is a 'partial' view. The right answer isn't always some above the fray compromise between two views, lovely though it feels to pretend it is.

Loufoque · Jun 14, 2016

Penelope said: ↑

Something being 'partial' isn't an argument.
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OK - so let's put it like this: the notion that a man born into the Muslim faith, who shot an entire club worth of gay men and pledged allegiance to the Islamic State while doing so, but just so happened to have homosexual urges, meaning that Islam's relationship to homosexuality is "irrelevant" to this massacre, is complete bullshit!

Penelope · Jun 14, 2016

Oh! I'd missed ron's post. Apols hun, I thought you were being dismissive of mine.

Sharla · Jun 14, 2016

I'm not sure Yasir Qadhi has the most balanced views on homosexuality if this response in his role as an agony aunt is anything to go by,

Q: Shaykh, I have unnatural urges and feel attracted to members of the same gender. I don't know what to do about this, can you please give me some advice.

A:
Bismillah, alhamdulillah, wa-l-salah wa-l-salaam ala Rasulillah

I was actually asked the same question in Toronto, a few weeks ago. And while this is a very disturbing question to some people, it is something that needs to be mentioned and discussed publicly.

It is possible that some people have urges that are considered abnormal by others. Sometimes, from a religious perspective these urges would indeed be classified as abnormal. But simply having such urges does not justify acting upon them.

The issue of sexual orientation has raised a huge controversy in Western circles. People are still debating whether sexual orientation is decreed by what they call 'Nature', or by 'nurture'. And the reason for this debate is that there is a tendency to justify homosexual urges because, it is claimed, they are beyond one's control. So, some people say: “My sexual orientation is something Nature has decreed. It's in my DNA – my genes! So its not in my control whether I am attracted to the opposite gender or the same gender.”

Such discussion is happening in the backdrop of what has been termed the 'sexual revolution', which began in full force in the 60's and, some would argue, is still continuing to this day. People are more open about topics of sexuality, morality levels have radically changed, and it has become acceptable to espouse what has been termed 'alternative life styles'. To give you just one example of how dramatic this revolution has been, many would be surprised to discover that even as recently as 50 years ago, Western culture viewed homosexuality with a very different lens. Up until 1973, homosexuality was actually classified as a mental disease in America.

In our religion, the discussion of whether these urges are because of 'Nature' or 'nurture' is really quite irrelevant. And by this I do not mean that we don't have an answer to this question. As Muslims, we believe that the fitrah that Allah created us upon is that, in terms of sexuality at least, opposites attract. But it is possible that some people have corrupted this fitrah themselves, or it has been corrupted by external methods. And it cannot even be ruled out that for some, the change in this fitrah is beyond their control.

But the point is – and that is why I say the question is irrelevant to the Shar'i ruling – even if somebody has such urges, it does not justify them acting upon it. Rather, what we can say to those who feel attracted to the same gender is that having such urges and conquering them is a part of the test Allah has given them. Each one of us is tried in different ways, and merely wanting to do an act is not justification enough to carry it out. Imagine if we were to open this door, and legitimize acting upon an urge merely because it existed!

And I firmly believe – and this is my theory, and it may be wrong – that the primary reason why we are seeing a rise in such unnatural inclinations is because of the proliferation of sexual images and the increasement of public sexuality around us. What this proliferation has done is to desensitize us to that which we should not be desensitized to. We are constantly bombarded with images of the most beautiful women and the most handsome men, and such images are a temptation to those of the opposite gender. Wherever we look, whether its TV, advertisements, magazines, the internet, or even simply strolling down a public road, we constantly see the most sexually charged images possible. Sexuality is always flaunted in our faces. And the proliferation of such overt sexuality desensitizes our normal sexuality. It is amazing that looking at a scantily clad gorgeous model in an advert hardly elicits any sexual arousal amongst people of our generation, whereas just a few decades ago that very image might have been banned in some Western countries, or at least never displayed in public.

Can you imagine (I know it's difficult to do so, but let us try!) growing up in a world where you have never seen an unrelated woman? Where you have never witnessed nudity? Where you have never gone through love affair after love affair? For the one who is raised in such a world, a person of 'average' beauty would be attractive to someone of the opposite gender.

This unnatural emphasis that our modern world has on external beauty is simply dangerous. Typically, when a person is looking for a spouse, such a person should feel an attraction to somebody of a similar background and culture and age. Such is the way that Allah created us – a man is attracted to the natural beauty of a woman. And that is why in the past, for thousands of years, our own fathers, and forefathers before them, did not emphasize external beauty to even a fraction of what we do, and yet it can be argued, merely by looking at their divorce rates, that their marriages were far more successful than ours. The whole emphasis on external beauty was simply unnatural to them. All of you know how your own parents and grandparents got married, and their grandparents before them. The groom comes, sees the bride, and, generally speaking, there is an attraction and the marriage takes place. Nowadays, on the other hand, the very notion of a pre-arranged marriage is a mockery that we would not subjugate ourselves to (and I am not suggesting here that we should – I'm merely pointing out how things have changed in just one generation). This emphasis that we have on 'beauty' and 'compatibility' is a very modern phenomenon. Of course I'm not suggesting that people in the past did not care about beauty, but what I am saying is that it was not anywhere near as emphasized as it is now. Also, since the generations before us were raised in environments where they were not subjected to the sight of sexual images everywhere, they would not compare their prospective spouses to the sensual images of world-famous models that have been seared into our heads as a result of our upbringing here. When we expect our spouses to look like the most beautiful/handsome people on Earth (and it must be pointed out that most pictures we see are not even real, having been digitally altered to look super-humanly sexy), this will only lead to trouble.

And so, when we have been bombarded with sexual images all the time, that which is naturally lustful loses its erotic nature. This then leads to being attracted to unnatural attractions. The bar for 'sexual titillation' rises higher and higher. It also explains certain sexual habits that are becoming more predominant between couples. While these habits might be halal and mubah in and of themselves, it does make us pause when we realize that people before us would disdain such practices and even consider some of them to be perverse. Once again, I reiterate that these practices might be halal, but the whole emphasis on sexual toys, sexual games, certain fetishes, and role playing, even between couples, is indicative of this sexually charged world we live in. While these matters are halal, it does show that we are not satisfied with what is natural. Our desires become increasingly insatiable.

And so this is why we are seeing an increase in many unnatural and perverse desires. Homosexuality is on the rise amongst non-Muslims, and now also amongst Muslims. A few weeks ago I was in Toronto, and the exact same question came up, where a brother wrote the exact same thing. And he said: “Shaykh, I can't help it. What advice do you give me? I can't help feeling attracted to other men. This is the way I am. And I'm battling it, and I'm embarrassed of it,” and he even said: “I don't even want to get married. The thought of getting married disgusts me”.

So, the question arises: what does a person who has such feelings do? As I've said, the fact that you have such feelings doesn't mean you act upon them. If Allah has tested you in this manner, then that is a part of your test and trial, and Allah says in the Qur'an, 'And Allah does not burden a soul with more than it can bear.' The claim that merely having an urge legitimizes it is extremely flimsy.

I say that I'm attracted to women. Does that legitimize going after every woman I'm attracted to? Of course not. We all have our desires and urges and we must all battle them. So if you experience urges that are unnatural, you must battle them, and without doubt Allah will reward you for that.

Another point to realize is that the urge, in and of itself, is not sinful. It is simply a desire, and desires are beyond our control, hence we are not accountable for them. But to allow such feelings to persist without trying to control them is problematic. In any case, the urge in and of itself is not sinful, acting on the urge is what incurs sin. As long as the desire remains in the realm of feeling, you are not accountable on the Day of Judgment, but the second that this desire is manifested in a physical action, you are liable for all that follows.

Lastly, even if you have acted upon this urge – and we seek Allah's refuge from this – know that this would constitute a sin. Yes, a major sin, and one that most people would be disgusted by, but realize that it is a sin alone and not kufr. Hence, even acting upon it and committing a major sin does not expel you from the fold of Islam. However, to stand up and justify it, or defend it, or write articles claiming that it is Islamic, without a doubt constitutes kufr, and not merely sin.

So, my dear brother who wrote this question – and you are my brother in Islam, even if you have such feelings – I want you to know that I sympathize with you, and I also appreciate your honesty and sincerity. I advise you to seek counseling, and to go to people who will understand your situation and who can direct you in a more specific manner. I understand as well that if you go to many of the typical imams of the masjids, they would not sympathize with your situation at all and would probably make matters worse for you. I understand that you cannot go to such people. But you will find sympathetic ears to listen to your problem, insha'Allah.

And remember that marriage is a solution, so you should seriously consider it. The Prophet Lut 'alayhis salam told his people, “These are my daughters, they are more pure for you.” Some scholars say that when he said “daughters”, he is also implying the women of the town and not just his own daughters. So he's telling the men of his community who were guilty of this crime to go and marry women, for they are better and purer for them. Marriage is a solution, because sensuality and sexuality is something that can be satisfied – rather it should be satisfied – by the opposite gender within the confines of marriage.

Try to repel these urges, do not act upon them, take immediate steps to get married, and throughout all of this, put your trust in Allah and continue making du'a to Him, and I pray that Allah makes your situation easy for you and blesses you in this life and the next.
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Loufoque · Jun 14, 2016

Penelope said: ↑

Oh! I'd missed ron's post. Apols hun, I thought you were being dismissive of mine.
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I would be more obvious about being dismissive with you babe

big ron · Jun 14, 2016

Sharla said: ↑

I'm not sure Yasir Qadhi has the most balanced views on homosexuality if this response in his role as an agony aunt is anything to go by,
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Crikey.

And remember that marriage is a solution, so you should seriously consider it.
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Yeah, thats worked out for loads of people in the past.

Sharla · Jun 14, 2016

There's a live press conference on BBC News. The guy speaking was shot 3 times and still has a cannula in his arm.

Omar Mateen was shooting bodies on the floor to make sure they were dead.

Kate · Jun 14, 2016

I haven't posted anything on Facebook because I just don't know what to say. Same as Paris and the others. Doesn't mean I don't care. There's so much horrible shit going on at the moment - this, Brock Turner, Trump, Brexit, now this woman in Qatar too... Fucking hell.

Phoenix · Jun 14, 2016

what a bunch of cunts

Following this weekend’s shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando, President Obama ordered that, “as a mark of respect for the victims,” the United States flag be flown at half-staff “upon all public buildings and grounds” through the end of the day Thursday.

Officials in Cole County, Missouri decided this didn’t apply to them.

The three-member commission that governs the county voted 2-1 against lowering the flag. “We (the commission) still have control over how the flags are displayed,” Commissioner Jeff Hoelscher (R) told the Jefferson City News Tribune. “Lowering it too much takes away from the honor. I feel for these victims and for their families, but I don’t feel this was a time for the flag to be lowered.”

Commissioner Kris Scheperle (R) similarly suggested that the Orlando shooting just doesn’t rise to the occasion. “I want to honor those who have served our country,” he said, “but we can’t lower it for every event like this that occurs. I do feel for those who were gunned down, but I don’t think it warrants lowering the flag.”

Neither commissioner elaborated any further as to why exactly they think the victims of the country’s deadliest terrorist attack since 9/11 did not deserve the honor.

Federal law dictates, “In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.”

President George W. Bush similarly ordered the flag be flown at half-mast for the five days following the attacks on September 11, 2001. In response to laws passed by Congress, Bush also issued proclamations in 2007 dictating that it be flown at half-mast every September 11 (“Patriot Day”) and every December 7 (“National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day”).
It’s unclear if Cole County’s commissioners similarly disagree about whether those occasions warrant lowering the flag to half-mast.
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Kate · Jun 15, 2016

A Big Gay Muslim Iftaar is happening in London this weekend.

Beverley · Jun 15, 2016

A friend is organising it.

Jætike · Jun 15, 2016

I condemn the tragic shootings in Orlando purportedly targeted at the LGBT community.
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Finally someone here dared to call it what it is.

Thank you Emeritus Senior Minister

Loufoque · Jun 15, 2016

Jætike said: ↑

Finally someone here dared to call it what it is.

Thank you Emeritus Senior Minister
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Purportedly?

lolly · Jun 15, 2016

Loufoque said: ↑

Purportedly?
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Quite. If anything that's an insult.

cwej · Jun 15, 2016

Purportedly?!?! That's a DREADFUL word to use in this situation! It almost reads as sarcastic!

Sharla · Jun 15, 2016

I love Anderson Cooper so much.

[video=youtube;BkSUE7esjG8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkSUE7esjG8[/video]

http://fusion.net/story/314257/anderson-cooper-florida-pam-bondi-lgbtq-rights/

Eileen · Jun 15, 2016

Kate said: ↑

A Big Gay Muslim Iftaar is happening in London this weekend.
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In a CHURCH? Blasphemy.

Jætike · Jun 16, 2016

No other politician has admitted that the shootings took place in a gay club or LGBT club. Coming from the country that banned the same-sex kiss in Les Mis the musical

Loufoque · Jun 16, 2016

Jætike said: ↑

No other politician has admitted that the shootings took place in a gay club or LGBT club. Coming from the country that banned the same-sex kiss in Les Mis the musical
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Even so, fuck that.

KindaCool · Jun 19, 2016

Very interesting.

[video=youtube;BKtz0naJrnw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKtz0naJrnw[/video]

Phoenix · Jul 25, 2016

Another shooting in a nightclub in Florida. 2 dead, 16 hurt so far.

Phoenix · Dec 28, 2016

If anyone is interested, this collection was released today to benefit the victims family and survivors. Collection of one or two pages at most stories and art. Some of it is a bit cringe but some is very touching and made me tear up.

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50 dead in Orlando gay club massacre

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Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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