Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by VoR, Dec 6, 2011.
So what IS an acceptable age gap, given Mo and VoR have clearly outlined what ISN'T?
FYI Cwej - please shut the fuck up likening myself and VoR to STOP FUCKING HATE readers. If you'd read anything I'd said, you would see that I don't actually consider it to be anyone's business or outrageously awful, but yes I do think it's ill advised on her part if it's true, for both herself and him.
His mother is probably not massively older than her (anyone else watch their most fabulous ITV 'documentary'?!) and that is just not a comfortable situation, IMO, which I'm fucking entitled to.
I couldn't disagree more and like I say I'm just frightened that anyone has this opinion. It really says a lot about the person thinking it - not the people who are happily enjoying each other's company.
I agree 100% with Slave's comments on it.
But by having this socially illiberal view, you are saying things that STOP FUCKING HATE readers would say - I'm not saying you ARE a STOP FUCKING HATE reader. I'm saying that on this particular issue your opinion is as ill-judged, bigoted and as lacking in understanding of other people and their right to free choice as the average STOP FUCKING HATE reader.
You absolutely have the right to that opinion as do STOP FUCKING HATE readers. I just think it's a bit sad.
I genuinely don't think there is such a thing as a universally acceptable age gap. I think age matters less as you get older and matters less to other people as you get older. Especially when you both parties get past 40 and you are reasonably settled in who they are.
cwej I think it's incredibly sad that you can't deal with anyone having a different opinion and enjoy righteous indignation so much. Everything I've said is a valid point and it's an interesting discussion.
The irony is that you YOURSELF are so black and white about things, about being liberal and about being conservative. If you could come down from the HIGH of self righteousness you're currently riding on, maybe you could actually engage in an interesting and thought provoking discussion about something which is clearly not an archetypal relationship age-gap wise.
Bit of a random nugget here but I remember that his mum had a reputation as the PREMIERE MILF of our school
I would say school leaver's age PLUS if you're in your thirties is a good start!
I have very little to say because MO has made all of my points far more intelligently than I ever could.
But cwej and Slave, comparing having an opinion about different age gaps between CHILDREN and ADULTS with bigoted issues with homosexuality speaks volumes about YOUR hangups, not mine.
As I said ages ago, if it was a 20 year old and a 50 year old, FINE. Hell a 20 year old and a 70 year old - kind of odd, but FINE, WHATEVER, BOTH ADULTS.
It's the fact that he's a kid that I find a bit weird.
But I am discussing it on a bigger context - I'm talking about us looking at the HISTORY of age of consent; the fact that you are only discussing 'archetypal relationships' in a modern context whereas there is a bigger story to it than just the current world we live in. I'm the one trying to open up the discussion to think about geographical location, the influence of social media on our opinions as individuals and the right of freedom of choice and actions.
I don't think I'm the one closing the interesting discussion down at all. I believe that if you lived in a different place or a different time you would have very different opinions on this.
For Christ's sake, I've already said time and time again that I just think it makes her a bit WEIRD, not that she should be arrested or anything.
Do you feel that same way in cases at the other end of the spectrum, where a 32 year old female might be engaged to a man in his late 70's? Because it's not that I want to go all
here but I'm sensing some vaguely sexist opinions coming across - younger men, older men, it's always the woman who is fucked up or taking advantage.
Perhaps if I lived in ROMAN TIMES I would have a VERY DIFFERENT opinion cwej, yes
But, I don't. I live in the present day. And in the present day I just think it's a little AWKWARD to be dating someone born POST 1990 when you're in your thirties, who doesn't have ANY of the same cultural references, the same breadth of life experience and who hasn't had very many if any serious sexual relationships.
(not to mention they're not old enough to take their A levels as yet)
But he's only a KID because the definition of being a child IN THIS COUNTRY is being under 18. Physically most men don't reach their full maturity until they are about 21 - so why are you OK with a 20 year old boy being with a 50 year old woman? But girls reach full physical maturity at 16 on average - does that change things?
And emotional maturity - well that isn't really measured in the same way as physical maturity, but surely people's emotional maturity just constantly changes and is different for different people - so how can we put a number on it? Oh, because SOCIETY tells us 18 is the legal age to vote.
So if we had this conversation in 1920, when the legal age to vote was 21, would you say a 20 year old shouldn't be allowed to have sex with an 'adult'?
Like I say, both of you are only looking at this from a modern angle and the current definition of an adult, which for all we know might change to 16 in 50 years time. It's changed so many times in history - wasn't 14 the age you became an 'adult' in Roman times?
I'm going to try and pull someone 15 years my junior tonight to test the theory that we'd be completely different.
Where do ten year olds hang out when they're not at school these days?
But there are plenty of 32 year olds who haven't had any serious sexual relationships. Are those 32 year olds allowed to have sex with a 17 year old?
And what about a 17 year old who has lots of sexual experience having sex with a 32 year old virgin. Does that make the 17 year old the 'odd one'?
Fair enough, but I'm really not looking at this from a legal point of view - just from what I feel comfortable with. PERSONALLY, I think 17 years old is very young. Physical maturity and emotional maturity are different things.
Let's say Gary Barlow began an affair with Amelia Lily. Would you think "Fair enough, more power to them. Hope those crazy kids manage to work something out " or would you think "God what a sad old letch"?
Because I know what my response would be.
'Fucked up' were the words you used... that's a fair bit stronger than just 'weird'
Oh as IF that is the attitude you would take! If you read that, I don't know, PIXIE LOTT (first 20 year old I could think of) had started shagging a 70 year old man in the tabloids you would be on here HOOTING about it with all the JUDGMENTAL INDIGNITY of a midweek edition of Wendy Williams!
Not at all. It's purely the fact that he is barely out of nappies for me.
Please let it be clear I have no discomfort with age gaps in GENERAL, even massive ones. Of course they can bring their own problems to a relationship if the gap is significant enough, but that's a different debate.
Actually yes I probably would.
You're preaching to the wrong person here, because my response would NOT be the same as yours. I WOULD say 'good luck to them'.
Well that's a different debate.
I was under the IMPRESSION the question was people's general feeling re CAROLINE FLACK and HARRY STYLES
So where do YOU draw the line? Do you agree with VoR that a 20 year old and a 70 year old is ok?
I wasn't aware you were privy to the information regarding Harry and Caroline's sexual history. I assume that you KNOW that Caroline has had loads of sexual partners and Harry has had virtually none?
Right I have marking to do for the hot 13 year old kids that I teach. I can't wait til they are 17 and I can fuck them.
Oh FUCK OFF cwej
You are seriously the most annoying person to have an argument with ever. The assumption would be that an attractive, outgoing presenter in her thirties may have the LIFE EXPERIENCE EDGE, yes.
Actually I'd like to rephrase my 20-70 comment as I wrote it in haste.
I would consider that odd, but I would think it was more mutually weird. I would struggle to believe that Pixie Lott (to follow Jark's example) was sexually attracted to an old codger, so I'd wonder what her motives were, and obviously a 70 year old who pulls a 20 year old is going to think "OH HAPPY DAY!"
With Flack and Styles, obviously he's THRILLED. I just wonder what's in it for her when she could pull somebody closer to her own age?
I'm going to grab my pitchfork and march to the SCD thread where we can berate lolly for looking at pictures of Harry Judd in his underwear
It's harder to call when Amelia looks like she could be KNOCKING ON for the same age as Barlow.
God the DEFENSIVENESS in this thread is hilarious
AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS
I think it's really awful that you're making VoR out to be small minded for thinking it's a bit of a strange pairing considering the massive age gap and the fact that Caroline Flack probably has a lot of choice of eligible batchelors who are of a decent age. Frankly, it is.
As I said previously, it's nobody's business and it's hardly a massive deal. But to pretend it's the norm is stupid when it's simply NOT the norm for some very valid reasons, not least because of the life experience gap.
I don't think you or VoR are "small-minded" for having an opinion on the matter. Like I previously said, to feel uncomfortable or rather puzzled by it is something I quite understand. And believe me, the thought of turning up to a night out with a 17 year old's peer group at 25 would leave ME feeling completely awkward.
However, I think there are a lot of presumptions being made about them which no-one here is in a position to make and what pushed it too far was VoR stating that she was "fucked up" because that is making implications about her intentions and stops just short of branding her a perverted MONSTER.
When it comes to life experience...well, I guess that just depends what you experience in your life. I have no doubt that some, or indeed many 17 year olds have experienced things that I haven't so I don't necessarily agree that there is a direct correlation between increasing age and wider life experience - at 32 I still don't anticipate that I will have taken drugs or had large amounts of casual sex (for example). So in that sense I guess I'm just wary of buying into the notion that you naturally gain "experience" when I'm pretty sure there are teenagers that could teach me a thing or two.
Ok well that is all very rational, thanks Slave.
However I don't think we should get too hung up on one emotive adjective VoR flung out; it's a bit pedantic and his point still stands. Also, I do think it is mildly 'fucked up' myself in a slight mid life crisis way (if it's even TRUE), although no doubt they get on spiffingly from a friendship type stance.
Also I think in the case of these two particular individuals that we can be quietly CONFIDENT she has a great deal more experience of EVERYTHING than him; not least because she has been on the planet for an extra 15 years.
No-one has pretended ANYTHING is the norm - of course it's not the 'norm'! But neither is it the 'norm' for couples of different ethnicity to get together; or for men to sleep with men... They are still 'abnormal' in a literal sense, because they are not the norm.
Anyway, good luck to them - I hope they are having fabulous sex and Harry is learning a lot from Ms Flack. I await the leaked sex video with baited breath.
cwej you're really sending my blood boiling bringing racism and homophobia into this.
I don't WISH LUCK to a doomed affair which involves a grown, mature woman fucking a BOY. Nor would I if it were other way around. Though obviously it's entirely their business.
Anyway, I thought you had PAPERS TO MARK?
I find it a little odd personally that people are asking the question 'why is she fucking him when she could be fucking someone her own age?' To my mind that's like asking why is she fucking someone with brown hair when she could be fucking a blond. It's her choice and if she wants to fuck him because she's attracted to him, then FAIR ENOUGH. He's old enough legally, so I don't think I should give a shit, or have any grounds to take offence at it. It probably IS fair to say that it does cast some reflection on her maturity, or level of emotional development or whatever, but to be honest that's nothing to do with me.
Why is it making your blood boil? Seriously, you need to calm down
It's a valid point because I'm bringing in things that have been equally seen as things that WON'T work in a relationship in the past - and it's been proven that they CAN work.
Yes, the likelihood is Harry and Caroline won't live happily ever after - but the likelihood of ANY relationship living happily ever after is pretty damn low. But these things have worked for some people - and I'm sure we'd all be pleased for those people right?