EU Referendum - RESULTS NIGHT / how are you voting poll

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by Penelope, Jun 22, 2016.

?

Quick, somebody say TAKE BACK CONTROL!

  1. I am voting to REMAIN in the European Union

    78.3%
  2. I am voting to LEAVE the European Union

    1.2%
  3. I am not British but would vote to REMAIN

    18.1%
  4. I am not British but would vote to LEAVE

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I am British and I am NOT VOTING

    2.4%
  1. Slave

    Slave User

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2004
    Messages:
    32,500
    Sorry, no.

    I said that the 'solution' offered by Brexit to certain issues was not necessarily the one that I would want and that I did not think was necessarily an issue FOR this referendum, but has nonetheless been dragged into the debate and I don't think Cameron's arguments were good enough.

    So I think I was specifically looking at immigration in the long-term. It's a double-edged sword and obviously from a professional point-of-view, I know the massive value that the free movement of people from the EU bring. But I DO think that free movement in itself adds to the pressure on housing, healthcare, local infrastructure, etc. It HAS to, it's not to say that I hold immigrants responsible for the failings of these services, but equally you can't ignore it as one of the streams into the pool of larger communities and the larger needs that those communities have as a collective.

    The REAL problem is that successive governments have failed to invest adequately in that infrastructure, but it got swept into the EU debate under the umbrella of "immigration" - and I felt during the debates that when questioned on it, Cameron addressed the whole topic as this negotiation of changes to the benefits system for immigrants and having to "pay in before you can take out", but that doesn't actually address the issue of growing demand on services and even when pressed on it, the details were vague (how do you measure what constitutes "taking out" - you can't give someone a pre-determined number of visits to A&E per year, or a set number of school days for their kids to avoid overcrowding. It all seemed to be based around monetary handouts and I just don't think think that constitutes any reognition of the ACTUAL problem).

    Alongside that, you have a lot of professions (including my own) now requiring degrees at entry level coupled with the recent massive rise in the cost of a University degree deterring potential applicants and creating shortfalls in the workplace. I think the ability of the Government to basically turn a blind eye to the problems that creates by farming the EU for international recruits in massive numbers to fill the posts that we SHOULD be able to recruit more readily to is a really short-termist solution. It fixes the immediate shortfall, but then further down the line, you have another generation of families who are unable to afford to access higher education, thus anoither shortfall, so you have another international recruitment drive to fill those vacancies, etc. I just think in the long-term it's a really short-sighted approach that papers over the cracks of a flawed system.

    My original point was that these issues aren't directly related to the EU referendum, BUT they did end up being thrown into the pot and yet Cameron's response was just to tar immigration and "handouts to immigrants" as the same thing - it's not. His other stock line was "Well, the best thing for the NHS is a strong economy" - if his argument is that our economy has grown in recent years, then that's in stark contrast to how year on year NHS performance has DIVED. That was the real sticking point for me and the one that eventually swayed me after I saw him time and time again just show absolutely no insight into what I think is a more representative concern about immigration than "they're coming to take our benefits".

    I think some of the discourse from the Leave campaign showed a bit more consideration (NOT, I hasten to add, the £350m comment) on the topic. So yes, for all that everything I've said above is something that I don't necessarily think belonged in this debate, it WAS a massive part of the debates so of course I took it into consideration when voting.
     
  2. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    12,129
    Location:
    London
    You have just brought more powers back into the hands of the U.K. Government, the ones that are ideologically taking down the NHS. I don't understand why you think the UK Government will actually do anything about the problems you describe with nursing recruitment. Do you think they will allow fact to get in the way of their ideological preferences or the need to look like they are right on tuition fees and always have been?

    On the other point, the research indicated that immigrants are paying more towards services than they are using? And isn't the growing demand on our health service notably attributable to older people who by in large are not new immigrants to this country? This is a genuine question, by the way. I usually imagine most migrants to be RELATIVELY young because they are economic, and all of the data I have seen on hospital beds and GP appointments indicate that it is the growing numbers within the older generation and an inadequate supply of social care and low cost community interventions that are on the most part putting the pressure on resources?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  3. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Oh Slave, you stupid CUNT.
     
  4. RobotBoy

    RobotBoy BANG BANG

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    42,472
    I really don't even know where to begin, Slave. :( But I am always very interested to read opinions from those who voted Leave who can string a sentence together, so thanks for that, at least.
     
  5. Eddie

    Eddie User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,488
    I'm curious as to what sort of curb on immigration you were expecting Slave, since THAT appears to be your primary reason for voting Leave. Also did you expect Britain to still have access to the single market if Brexit took place? I'm sure you would have realised that free movement of people and labour would be a consequence of retaining that perk. If that is not the case, could you not foresee the enormous impact that would have on the UK economy?

    Like RB, I'm genuinely curious about your opinion and the basis for your concerns. For example, did you see first hand, the effect of the strain on the NHS specifically caused by migrants? Were your patients largely made up of Eastern Europeans? So many questions...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  6. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    64,687
    I can follow Slave's logic with this argument, but only to a certain point:

    - Immigration has put our infrastructure under pressure - this is true
    - The problem is that successive UK governments have failed to invest in infrastructure to release some of that pressure - I can buy that too
    - David Cameron made repeated statements that showed he misunderstood the immigration issue - it was not about migrant benefits but about increased pressure on public services that was not being addressed
    - Therefore Slave decided to pull the EMERGENCY BRAKE on immigration

    But this betrays a lack of foresight as to what the immigration options were post-Brexit. No one has ever been able to show a convincing plan for stopping immigration, and any basic knowledge of the Norwegian/Swiss scenarios would show that there is no precedent for single market access without free movement of people. The government and corporate interest groups (ie. the people at the negotiating table) will never allow us to pull out of the single market as this would be economic suicide, in which case there was no point in pulling the "emergency brake" on immigration with a Leave vote as it was never going to achieve the desired outcome.

    Now instead of having conversations about infrastructure investment, an enormous amount of government time, resources and attention will need to be spent on extricating the UK from this trade quagmire we've got ourselves into.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  7. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    I was kinda hoping my job would be at risk.
     
  8. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Can I get a streamlined version of Slave's racist statements please?

    I assume Slave is racist because he voted leave and I'm sticking to that. It's a shame That One isn't here. I assume he was a Brexiter.
     
  9. RobotBoy

    RobotBoy BANG BANG

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    42,472
    That One voted to Remain.
     
  10. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Miracles will never cease.

    Besides I heard that a vote for Remain is against immigration from Asia, so now it suits me it was definitely a racist vote.
     
  11. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    64,687
    Slave's vote was not racist. It was ultimately a vote against austerity. Whether it was the right way to express that frustration or not is debatable, but I don't think it's fair to paint him as something he is clearly not.

    What I have found quite humbling about this experience is that it's probably the second real political cause/effect loop I have lived through - the first being Labour's profligacy, arrogance and lack of foresight regarding boom/bust cycle, and this one being the effects of the financial crisis and subsequent austerity politics on the political affiliations of the people of England and Wales. I was never particularly bothered about austerity, as it "didn't affect me" in any meaningful way - but suddenly now it does. You can study history and listen to stories about the whys and wherefores, but until you live through it yourself, and see how actions and policies have unintended and unpredictable outcomes, it's hard to grasp the enormity of your decision in the moment that you are standing in the voting booth.
     
  12. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Cos austerity was what is was all about. Fucking dickhead.
     
  13. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    64,687
    But it was - in some part - about austerity. It was a reaction to the utter disenfranchisement of the average person. The feeling that their futures weren't going to get any brighter. That their local authorities were going to be more stretched as more people arrived.

    I don't think it was the RIGHT way to express that anger, as the likelihood is none of that stuff will change now.
     
  14. ButterTart

    ButterTart Egg Custard Tart

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24,754
    Location:
    The Land of Broken Dreams
    To Slave's point about housing issues in urban areas, and the government's failings in investing in such areas - I can see the point, but voting is out of the EU was a massive own goal in that regard. Especially in towns across the north, the vast majority of money for urban regeneration comes from the EU itself - the UK government can't hope to match their spending in these areas, and have never shown any interest in doing so either way. Besides the fact that the Leave vote will do literally nothing to curb immigration given that it's part and parcel of any trade deal we broker with the EU, it also severely limits our ability to make urban areas more capable of sustaining larger populations, because the funds for their redevelopment and expansion will no longer be available.

    As Ron said much earlier in the thread, I have to respect you for sticking to your guns and actually being open about the reasons for your vote. Even if I disagree with your choice, I think you're handling the backlash well.
     
  15. ButterTart

    ButterTart Egg Custard Tart

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24,754
    Location:
    The Land of Broken Dreams
    By contrast, a wanker I went to school with tried to call me out on voting Remain on Facebook, and after the usual name calling and wild suppositions, was absolutely DESTROYED by one of my hardcore left friends. It was all immensely gratifying to watch.
     
  16. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    60,795
    Location:
    European Union
    Oh it's definitely going to change. We can see in every budget how the slightest change to GDP growth causes Osborne to be more or less austere. The next budget is going to be killer, no matter who is in charge. The best we can hope for is that the pensioners don't get spared once again.
     
  17. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    64,687
    Sorry, what I mean is: "none of that stuff will improve"
     
  18. Zu-Klara

    Zu-Klara User

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    27,516
    Demo tonight at Trafalgar Square

    ARSES DOWN THERE PLEASE
     
  19. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Let's CRUSH the elderly.
     
  20. Mel

    Mel User

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    8,824
    Location:
    Cracolândia
    I'll be there!
     
  21. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    22,863
    I can understand the frustration of the working class; they feel abandoned by the socialists (because those bastards would rather help the filthy immigrants than care about their own people) so they turn to the right who'd always fuck them over. Doesn't mean I sympathise.
     
  22. Christian

    Christian GOOD BYE!

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    40,126
    Location:
    Darkness
    As will I :disco:
     
  23. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25,954
    Location:
    Your DMs
    I'm in London and thinking of going. Is it going to peaceful? Because I'm up for a riot.
     
  24. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam Not Lana Del Rey

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    9,931
    Location:
    Hell
    You can start one. Throw a chair. Be the change you want to see in the world.
     
  25. monsta

    monsta CAUGHT YOUR FEVER

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    22,787
    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;Do not let Scotland down.&quot; Scotland's <a href="https://twitter.com/AlynSmithMEP">@AlynSmithMEP</a> gets a rousing applause from European Parliament <a href="https://t.co/961mdWVlfE">https://t.co/961mdWVlfE</a></p>&mdash; Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/747729114828779521">28 June 2016</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

    Also LOLing at some of the CHARMING replies
     
  26. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25,954
    Location:
    Your DMs
    I'm more a smoke bomb kind of gal.
     
  27. Eddie

    Eddie User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,488
    I think by proxy, it sort of is. The result has given rise to the kind of nationalism that hasn't been seen for decades. It has emboldened those who, prior to the vote, might not have felt comfortable to express such extreme opinions but now see it as fair game since their deep seated prejudices have been validated in some way. In that respect it has set this country back decades. I find it hard to believe that someone like Slave could not foresee this happening?
     
  28. RobotBoy

    RobotBoy BANG BANG

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    42,472
    Erm... Is Alyn Smith quite hot?
     
  29. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Was every single non racist LEAVE voter unaware they were voting with a bunch of RACISTS? Why so agog at how they're being branded!?
     
  30. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    Slave is evil.
     
  31. Eddie

    Eddie User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,488
    Particularly since regardless of the result very little would likely change with respect to immigration.

    I understand that people were voting against the establishment but at what cost?
     
  32. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25,954
    Location:
    Your DMs
    The fact is the leave vote has legitimised racism and xenophobia, if you voted to leave, you have that on your hands regardless of if you're not really racist or even have a UB40 album.
     
  33. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    191,646
    Location:
    BRING BACK TAGS
    So few are taking ownership of it. Show some balls admit THIS IS YOUR FAULT.
     
  34. Eddie

    Eddie User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,488
  35. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    22,863
    <3
     
  36. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    24,092
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Makes a change from me! :D

    On one hand I do actually admire Slave for coming out and actually giving us reasons for his vote. Sadly, I just can't agree with them. ESPECIALLY when he does the job he does. I'm actually flabbergasted.

    I guess though what's done is done, and I don't think there's really any point in hounding him. It's not as if he single-handedly caused this catastrophe. I will ask however - Slave, if you could go back and revote, would you STILL vote leave?
     
  37. Commotion

    Commotion User

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    5,686
    The tone of the entire Leave campaign was xenophobic, small minded and toxic. And then Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiter.

    This was clear as the day to every Leave voter.

    They knew full well they are allying themselves to racists.

    Therefore in the best case scenario they are racist by proxy.
     
  38. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25,954
    Location:
    Your DMs
    Fucking sound. That made my hairs stand on end
     
  39. Zu-Klara

    Zu-Klara User

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    27,516
    Temptress :disco:

    I'll bring the BRICKS
     
  40. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    64,687
    Even if the consequence of a Leave victory is the normalisation of racism, that doesn't mean Slave's vote was racist.
     

Share This Page