First UK Doctors strikes in 40 years

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by VoR, Jan 12, 2016.

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It's funny because Jeremy Hunt rhymes with...

  1. I support the Junior Doctors strike

    97.1%
  2. I don't support the Junior Doctor's strike

    2.9%
  1. Ag

    Ag User

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    BUT THEY'RE EFFECTIVELY LOSING MONEY, THIS IS THE POINT! PEOPLE'S WAGES LEAST OF ALL DOCTORS SHOULD NEVER GO DOWN.
     
  2. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    Good. Give them more.
     
  3. That One

    That One User

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    ARGH!

    I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD BE PAID LESS OR DON'T DESERVE A PAY RISE!!!

    FOR GODS SAKE!

    IT'S LIKE TALKING TO A BRICK WALL
     
  4. Ag

    Ag User

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    THEN WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT STILL???
     
  5. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    :D

    What's your point, love?
     
  6. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    What did you mean precisely by this then?

    And since we're in a clarification mood, then I meant that they deserve greater reward than what they're currently getting. I don't particularly give a fuck about how much someone who works down Lidl earns in comparison to them, nor do I see how it's relevant to this discussion at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  7. That One

    That One User

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    I'll try and break it down simply.

    They are arguing that Saturdays are unsocial hours so they should carry on getting extra pay for working it.

    Right?

    I'm saying that lots of jobs work Saturdays now, and even *clutches pearls* Sundays, and gave an example of my own job where we don't get any extra pay for working these 'unsocial' hours.

    Right?

    Big Ron and others argued that a Doctor's job is far more stressful, therefore they SHOULD get paid more - but I never said they shouldn't? They do get paid considerably more.

    Right?

    So, they get paid more, of course they do, because they have a much more stressful job, but on top of that they want 'unsocial' hours payments that no one else gets for working those 'unsocial' hours. Why?
     
  8. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    I believe he's saying that they already earn a higher salary than him, and he gets paid the same on a Saturday as he does on a Thursday, so why shouldn't they?

    To which I'd say that office and retail work is the kind of work you can generally leave at the door at the end of the day. You also don't spend seven years accumulating a shitload of debt for it. You also have a lot more freedom to find other places of work if you hate it. (Not to sound flippant about the state of the employment market, but at the very least there's a wider variety of things you could realistically step into in the retail/office/customer service space, even if it's just going from working for Premier Inn to working for Ramada).

    If you train to be an NHS doctor, you can't then just go away and do something less stressful - well, you can, but that either means throwing away your years of training or going into the private sector (which is exactly what Hunt and his cronies want). Somewhere down the line it was agreed that with all the other shit Doctors have to put up with, it's fair enough that they get extra if they have to work a Saturday. Taking that away from them is just one example of how much these reforms are being done in bad faith, with no respect for the work these people do. I don't really understand why you seem to resent that so much?
     
  9. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    That One, I don't think it's that we're not understanding what you're trying to say, we just can't understand why it bothers you so much that doctors get a Saturday bonus. If you want to moan about unfair wage equity in this country there are *far* more deserving targets.
     
  10. Ag

    Ag User

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    Not all of us in the service industry are like this, just to add.
     
  11. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Regardless of who is seen to back down, contracts are going to change and the way doctors work is going to change, although as Slave says, reform of weekend working is dependent on a lot of other services getting their arse into gear. I just hope the strike won't go on to a point where the public start to lose sympathy.

    And hopefully the opposition will start to offer an alternate version of what the NHS needs to look like over the next 20 years. Isn't Heidi Alexander a dead ringer for Katy Brand?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. That One

    That One User

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    What I'm trying to say is the stressful nature of the job is already reflected in the fact they get much higher wages than most people, the argument I'm making is that the doctor I saw on the news this morning was saying that if he has to work every weekend then he will miss out on family life because of it. The same thing applies to anyone in any job that works weekends though. It's not a money thing, it's arguing that working during the daytime on a Saturday is 'unsocial' and deserves extra pay *just* because of that.

    If the job is *so* stressful that they should be paid more then fine - but the argument for unsocial hours payments is purely based on the fact that working until 10pm at night or on Saturday daytimes is unsocial and prevents a normal family life - well that applies to *everyone*.
     
  13. JillTyrell

    JillTyrell Deep inside I am profoundly lonely.

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    Shop workers, on the whole, haven't studied for up to ten years and leave education with thousands of pounds of debt that. They also don't have the knowledge and skill to potentially save your life.
     
  14. That One

    That One User

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    *sigh* I never said they did.
     
  15. Penelope

    Penelope DON'T TALK TO ME

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    HA.
     
  16. Indie

    Indie REMAIN INDOORS

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    I heard that That One murders doctors on Saturdays
     
  17. That One

    That One User

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    Only until 7pm, I would never consider working unsocial hours after then.
     
  18. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    I think That One's logic is a bit of a "race to the bottom" one. I never understood the point of taking issue with those doing undeniably valuable work and getting paid adequately for it. Why turn us all into "have nots" rather than arguing that shop staff should probaly be treated and paid better too? It's not Junior Doctor's fault that the occupations that now employ millions of people tend to leave them utterly powerless in terms of fighting their rubbish wages or crap working conditions ... and that inability to tackle any of that stuff is pretty much due to the ethos of this government and others before them.

    There is a tendency now to resent the few professions left that do have the clout to strike but I don't think the solution is to argue against that right.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  19. That One

    That One User

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    I think you're also misinterpreting what I'm saying as well. I don't have ANY issue with doctors getting paid more, it's only fair. The only question I wanted to raise is that they are saying as well as being paid more (which is only fair) they ALSO expect unsocial hours payments, and I asked why that applies to Doctors anymore than anyone else who works weekends. Or is it only Doctors who deserve a family life?

    I recall when I used to go out with someone years ago who worked at M&S, that there was a bit of jealousy of those who'd worked there for a long time and who's contracts still allowed them to opt out of working Sundays, and if they did then they got extra pay, which didn't apply to anyone who joined after the law on Sunday trading changed in the mid 90s. I wonder if they'll attempt something similar wherby new doctors have to agree to the new T&C while those already qualified can stick to the old rules.
     
  20. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    When I had my first job in the NHS back in the early 2000s I was one of the first on a new contract where I got standard bank holidays and two days extra leave and everyone else had two days off at May Day and August bank holidays.

    I was pressured to take the same two days as leave but was happy to work and use it another time, but the other admin people were furious although the managers and nurses were happy as I would support the clinics that were run on those two Tuesdays which for everyone else was a standard work day. Everything changed under Agenda For Change a few years later thankfully,

    They also tried to organise a strike when half day Christmas shopping leave was cancelled. They genuinely couldn't understand how they'd be able to do their shopping at the weekend like normal people do.
     
  21. Slave

    Slave User

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    I can see your point and I don't really think there is anything that says one worker deserves more of a family life than the other.

    I suppose my rationale for why I feel I've "earned" my unsocial payments is one of (lack of) choice and sacrifice. I knew exactly what I was getting into when I went into nursing, but that doesn't change the fact that it's so hard to miss significant family events because of working nights and weekends - and as much as I'm sure there are people in other sectors who make such sacrifices, I know that if I still worked in retail or an office, I wouldn't have missed half the things I have done. I'm not saying other sectors can pick and choose their hours, but doctors (and nurses) have no choice in the shifts they work and little flexibility in which shifts they're rostered to. And I do agree with VoR's point that there are a greater number of alternatives for retail/office workers if they don't like their hours - I don't mean that flippantly, but chances are if you didn't want to work weekends in an office, you would be able to find a job that didn't require it without needing to re-locate.

    I think as a whole, medicine is a very unsocial profession until you get to a very senior level. You're not tied to one place of work for more than 3-4 months at a time (thus you never really have a 'boss' who is regulating your hours) and at the end of every year you move to a different hospital, usually in a completely different city. That doesn't really have anything to do with unsocial hours as such, but it's not like doctors are just sat there raking it in with minimal outgoings. The profession itself is very personally and financially demanding.

    And I don't think that is entirely unreasonable. The new contract propsals need some fine-tuning, but I think if that's what the contract is going to be, and you set it from X date and everyone going to medical school knows that's the contract they'll be on, then they can make an informed decision.

    I think a lot of the anger currently stems from the fact that a lot of doctors entered a profession on one contract and will now be forced onto another one with little consultation. I don't really see why they can't implement the new contract (if it goes ahead) for new graduates and keep existing employees on the old one - that sort of thing is rife in most sectors.
     
  22. That One

    That One User

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    I understand what you're saying as well, but I can assure you it's the same for anyone in my industry - we don't have any choice about the shifts we work, which include Saturdays, Sundays, and (although not here) nights and Christmas. Having an easier less stressful job doesn't make it any 'better' or 'easier' to miss out on things - I lost a relationship I really wanted to work because I was always working nights and we could never see each other. And I was earning minimum wage (around £5 an hour then), so didn't even have a good pay packet to make it all worthwhile at the end of the month. There are no unsocial hours payments, aside from an extra 0.33p an hour if you did the overnight shift (10pm til 10am).

    I may be in a far better position to get something else now, but what option did I have back then, or someone else in a similar position now, there are always plenty of hotel jobs going but they all have unsocial hours.

    It's all very well if you work 9-5 Mon-Fri in an office, you can move around fine then, but what office job has unsocial hours?
     
  23. dixielandings

    dixielandings User

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    The argument is that junior doctors will get a pay cut up to 30% with the new contract... I don't think anyone in any profession would happily accept this.

    Doctors get more for antisocial hours because the basic pay is relatively low. A doctor on a 9 to 5 mon to Friday contract has a ridiculously low pay for the job that is done, it's only the antisocial banding that makes it a decent (starting) salary.

    and working the weekend usually involves 12 hour shifts without breaks and more often than not a run of 12 days without a day off! Rotas have improved over the years but depending on your specialty many are still pretty shit. People who work these sort of hours deserve more pay than a doctor in a lab or a gp who don't do any work past 5pm
     
  24. That One

    That One User

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    I'd be interested to see any working that shows Dctors will have to take a 30% pay cut if the new rules come into force.
     
  25. Commotion

    Commotion User

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    The nurses are going on strike in Ireland (apart from emergency) next week.
    Over here the arguement is that the government is trying to go for a US stiyle system in that you pay for your own health and if you don't, you deal with utterly crap healthcare.
    Well the nurses are saying 'fuck you' to the government and rightly so.
    I am not sure it is the same but my suspicion is that the Torycunt Party plan is to make healthcare a service dependent on your wealth.
    Which, if that is the case I say, 'Go doctors- demand an increase of 20% to have to deal with that Jeremy Cunt person.'
     
  26. dixielandings

    dixielandings User

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    It is truly that ridiculous! However all the figures are out there if you wish to learn more about it...
     
  27. That One

    That One User

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    I got some figures from the BBC that showed there wasn't much, if any difference, but some people do say the BBC has a right wing bias.
     
  28. dixielandings

    dixielandings User

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    if you have an understanding of how doctors salaries are made up and have read the government paper on this then it is quite clear that this new proposal can't possibly result in 'not much, if any difference'

    The amount of spin in the press regarding this is ridiculous! Thankfully the public can (mostly) see through it all and know better than to believe a politician
     
  29. That One

    That One User

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    Have you got a link I can look at? Even the information provided by the junior doctors themselves to explain the reasoning behind the strike that I posted upthread doesn't claim anywhere near 30%?
     
  30. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    What problem have you got with Doctors?!
     
  31. That One

    That One User

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    Why do you think I have a problem with Doctors??
     
  32. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    Because your argument is a little redundant. Doctors perform some of the most important work in our country, and you're questioning their entitlement to a salary that they've received for so long and deserve. :disco:
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  33. That One

    That One User

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    Nope. I'm questioning why no one else is entitled to it as well - not saying that Doctor's aren't entitled to it.
     
  34. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    I think he's more annoyed because doctors currently get paid for anti-social hours but others don't more than anything else. But as many have said, it's like comparing apples with oranges.

    A starting salary (not including extra payments) of just under £23k is SHOCKING. I thought nurses starting at £21k was bad enough. Incidentally, nurses also get anti-social pay, and the RCN have said that they will vehemently oppose any changes they try to put through. The NHS is a great institution in many was but for those that work for it, the pay is generally shit. I was offered an analyst job on a similar level to the one I have now, but it was a THIRD less pay. The average salary for a nurse in the US is £45k. In the UK it is £23k.
     
  35. That One

    That One User

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    I'm not annoyed. I posted after seeing a doctor on the news saying that he couldn't possibly be expected to maintain a family life if he had to work weekends. I asked why this doesn't apply to everyone else who works weekends, including myself, and as a result I've been accused of thinking doctors are worthless scum who don't deserve to be paid any extra - despite repeatedly pointing out that this isn't the case.
     
  36. Sheena

    Sheena MAKE IT QUICK, LUCILLE!

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    I start my Project Managers here, who generally work 8-5 and sit behind a computer all day, on £18k + Commission, which ends up being around £20-£21k a year. If you think in a MILLION YEARS a Junior Doctor therefore deserves starting salary of £23k, then you're a FUCKING MORON.
     
  37. Sheena

    Sheena MAKE IT QUICK, LUCILLE!

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    But isn't that kind of true? The majority of people who choose an industry where weekend working is necessary generally don't have kids, for example, do they?

    Total "thumb in the air" moment here, I have no evidence, but that's what it appears...
     
  38. That One

    That One User

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    Who said that's what salary they deserve?
     
  39. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    Hmmn. I think we've successively answered that too - perhaps its tied to social function and the critical role that doctors play in our society above and beyond other 'customer services'?

    Also, I get what you're saying, but I still don't understand your perspective. Just because the Government has enabled Saturday to be treated as a regular working day (wrongly, imho), doesn't mean we should allow them to do it to Doctors as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  40. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    Because your attitude towards them in the subtext and tone of your posts gives me, and apparently everyone else, that opinion.
     

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