How do you solve a problem like antisemitism in the Labour party?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by Ag, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. Ag

    Ag User

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    This has been bubbling away for months. I haven't really read much into it and I don't really get why it's such a thing, probably because I'd hoped it would go away and leave the great white hope Corbyn to pursue his dream in creating a Socialist utopia. I had also assumed it was partly made up, by Tory spin.

    But I've noticed the investigation against Margaret Hodge calling Corbyn antisemitic has been dropped and it made me wonder, what was behind that?

    If anyone cares to enlighten me, thanks.
     
  2. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    Ugh. Just ugh.

    I've yet to be convinced of anything other this being a massive smear campaign orchestrated by everyone to the equal or to the right of Tony Blair.
     
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  3. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    Mind you, Corbyn has been a bit of a wet sponge in dealing with it.
     
  4. Ag

    Ag User

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    As he always is.
     
  5. big ron

    big ron User

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    It's fucking bollocks. Being critical of Isreal ≠ antisemitism.
     
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  6. Shirley

    Shirley YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS

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    That's what I was going to say but it's not just THAT is it? If so then :manson: to the WHOLE LOT
     
  7. big ron

    big ron User

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    I've not dug THAT deep but yeah, I think it all stems from Corbyn's history of entertaining dialogue with different people, something he was very vocal of. Because he's shared platforms with people who are critical of Israel, or championed the release of Palestinian prisoners, he's essentially a big jew hating Nazi.

    The other 'issue' is Labour not adopting some global code for what is, and isn't anti-semitism. Again, I've not dived into it, but I'd bet my bottom dollar its because its aggressive towards Palestinians.
     
  8. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    I think there are a lot of Corbynistas whose positions do veer into anti-semitism. And even if they don't hold those beliefs necessarily, they refuse to take responsibility for how their statements do just that.

    At the same time, there is no doubt that sections of the party and the media are totally using this to flog Labour/Corbyn for as long as they can. It's sad, but its also in bad faith to some extent; I don't see anyone giving a shit about the massive amounts of Islamophobia amongst the Tories - and it's not like its an either/or game.
     
  9. cwej

    cwej User

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    Replace the words 'antisemitism' and 'Labour' with 'Islamophobia' and 'Conservative' and we have the Boris Johnson issue.


    Can't we all just vote for the Lib Dems and be done with it?
     
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  10. Jark

    Jark User

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    I thought those whores DIED
     
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  11. Christian

    Christian GOOD BYE!

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    If there was a general election tomorrow, I could not vote for anyone. I've never had that before.

    The Lib Dems are talking about binning Vince this autumn and bringing in an outsider, apparently. The way things are going, that will probably end up being Alex Jones.
     
  12. SDF

    SDF The Wait is Over

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    What a bloody non event this story has been

    Bagels agog etc
     
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  13. SDF

    SDF The Wait is Over

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    Also :D to the suggestion that the Lib Dems would be any better than this shower of shit
     
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  14. Diddy

    Diddy Rice Queen

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    Alex Jones from the One Show?
     
  15. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    It's amazing that this shit is sticking, and that people are swallowing it.

    Is Jeremy Corbyn an anti-Semite? No. Of course he fucking isn't. He's a hippy pacifist who has spent a lot of his life campaigning for social justice.

    Is anyone in Labour an anti-Semite? Maybe. But there are more of them in the Tory party. Stuff like this https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...-chairman-caught-up-in-new-anti-semitism-row/ barely gets mentioned or indeed surveys such as this https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties which show that it's more of a problem with the membership of the Tories than Labour. OF COURSE let's not just engage in whataboutery but the focus at the moment is ridiculous.

    And then there's the definitions (the examples!) that have not been wholescale adopted by Labour. Oh god I could go on about this for a while, but breaking it down:
    P.S. There is a common misconception that "the examples" say you can't criticise Israel, but that's not true. The examples say you can't compare it to Nazi Germany, or that you can't say that Israel should not exist. That's a bit different.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  16. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    It's all a load of fucking bullcrap. And frankly, the whinging by Jewish Groups (some of which have right wing political associations ANYWAY so are merely point-scoring but it's not obvious) or those who complain on behalf of Jewish groups (let's call them the snowflake wallflowers) are just making it worse for themselves. Being whiney little bitches doesn't make you friends with anyone. Sure, you've had a shit time 80 years ago, but nobody is *really* persecuting you now*, so sooner you cheer the fuck up the sooner we can stop talking about it and we can all move together onto more important things.

    *except those nasty UKIP-types, but they hate everyone, don't take it personally.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  17. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    I made a swear
     
  18. big ron

    big ron User

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    Indie an anti-semite? *my pearls*
     
  19. Indie

    Indie Skeptopotamus

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    Frankly, I'm anti-everyone.

    Although ironically, I want everyone to get along.
     
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  20. big ron

    big ron User

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    Thats a manifesto I could get behind.
     
  21. Ag

    Ag User

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    Why has Rachel Riley become so involved in this?!
     
  22. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    She's jewish!
     
  23. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    I listened to RR's interview for the C4 podcast and though I sympathise with her, there was an awkward moment where she cited the statement 'Israel is a racist endeavor' as anti-semitic, and refused to engage with the presenter suggesting that actually Israel is racist. It is entirely possible to be critical of Israel without hating Jewish people, although I understand that a lot of people who are critical of Israel actually are anti-semites too.

    This story does seem to have legs, for what ultimately seems to amount to 'there are racist trolls on the internet'. Theresa May accidentally deporting black people certainly didn't drag on this long in the mainstream press, nor has the constant Islamophobia of various mainstream politicians. Is this a concerted effort from the BBC to drag down the left? Is it because British people find racism against white people unpalatable? Is it a Zionist conspiracy from those darn Rothschilds*? We just don't know.

    *It's not that one.
     
  24. big ron

    big ron User

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    Apparently it isn't.
     
  25. Mugatu

    Mugatu Fired 4 Truth

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    There's definitely a problem with a minority of insane old conspiracy lunatics in the grassroots, they're a relic of an age when this sort of thing flew more under the radar. They're a huge liability at this point and Labour should be tougher on them, even if it does hurt some personal loyalties.

    The issue has always been in the background, I only just found out about those posters of Michael Howard as Shylock (!), but shit like Twitter and far harsher media coverage has made it much more pressing. And there are some good-faith critics on the topic.

    Labour shouldn't budge on criticising Israel or unfair reporting but there are ways to do it without being anti-Semitic. Some of the recent "tropes" that people are talking about are spurious nonsense but it's not hard to avoid saying the most obvious ones, like ranting about the Rothschilds.

    But if I was a Jewish person on the left then I'd be equally pissed off about stuff like this. The scandal has so transparently been seized by opportunists who want to change the political direction of the party. She isn't even Jewish!

     
  26. Commotion

    Commotion User

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    Israel is racist though. It is the law of the land in Israel (since July 2018), that only Jewish people have a right to national self-determination in that country. That law was passed at the same time that Arabic (the native tongue of over 20% of the Israeli population) was declassified as an official language. That is racist to its very core.

    This attempt to conflate anti-Semitism with opposition to what is effectively an Apartheid regime against the Palestinian population seems to be what is the biggest driver of this topic.

    And Riley's refusal to even debate this is not a good look for her integrity.
     
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  27. dmlaw

    dmlaw Democracy doesn't work

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    The problem is when you say that Israel is racist rather than that the Israeli government or a specific Israeli law are racist. The specific phrase 'Israel is a racist endeavour' coms perilously close to saying that Israel is in some way unavoidably racist as a concept and therefore shouldn't exist, which is unambiguously anti-Semitic.
     
  28. Mugatu

    Mugatu Fired 4 Truth

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    It's a question of how you choose to read the statement, most criticism of countries' governments is phrased like that. The Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians and Ethopian Jews is definitely racist. I haven't seen many people characterise Israelis themselves as personally racist.
     
  29. dmlaw

    dmlaw Democracy doesn't work

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    True, and Commotion's comment clearly referred to the Israeli government and a racist law. Its such a sensitive area that it feels worth fully saying 'The Israeli government' or 'Jewish settlers in the West Bank' when that's who you want to criticise rather than simply saying Israel, for all that its a common way of referring to most governments.
     
  30. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    I can understand why some criticism of Israel is interpreted as being anti-Semitic. I do think some people are hiding their racist opinions under the cover of criticising Israel. But also, one does have to be very careful, for example, when criticising Israeli lobby groups that you don't feed into those greedy, powerful jew, Protocol of Zion tropes.

    But at the same time, I'm curious; is it anti-Semitic to describe the state of Israel a racist endeavour? Its constructed on superiority, the superior claim to the land, the superior need of a group of people, and it is maintained on those grounds. I don't really believe that borders and nations are sacrosanct.
     
  31. Mugatu

    Mugatu Fired 4 Truth

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    Yeah, I agree that there can be some unusually aggressive undertones in the way a small fringe of the online left criticises Israel.

    It's the only explicitly Jewish state, it's always going to feel slightly uncomfortable to call it out given the history involved. But I don't particularly think that motivates a specific change in language today, or at least any more than other sensitive topics do when talking about other countries (Pakistan, Iran etc).

    It's an over-inflammatory turn of phrase but I don't personally believe that the vast majority of people who say "Israel shouldn't exist" want the actual Israeli people not to exist. They typically want a secular state shared by Israelis and Palestinians, from what I've read.
     
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  32. Commotion

    Commotion User

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    The West Bank / East Jerusalem have been illegally occupied by Israel since 1967 in direct conflict with international law. Israel disputes this, but refuses to annex those lands as it would mean giving citizenship to the Arab population living there. The Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been promoted with the specific intent of preventing a 2 state solution as they split the territory of the illegally occupied lands. The 'Jews-only' roads and towns in the illegally occupied territories is unavoidably racist.

    The laws inside the legal borders of Israel which state that only Jews have a right to national self determination are unavoidably racist.

    The occupation and settlements and laws are unavoidably racist.

    It is anti-Semitic to state that Israel should not exist.

    To state that the Israeli government (which remember is voted for by the Israeli population) should be treated as a rogue, racist government is not anti-Semitic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
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