How do you solve a problem like antisemitism in the Labour party?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by Ag, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    Here's some information on Keir Starmer's position on the issues btw:

    It's worth noting that the conflation of antisemitism and anti-Zionism in this way is seem by many as a form of antisemitism in itself, as it implies that Jewish people have dual loyalty.
     
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  2. Jark

    Jark apocalypse

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    Labour remains a sorry, sorry mess.
     
  3. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    I for one am SHOCKED at this REVELATION!

    I guess with Keir appeasing the Zionists (shame on him), all the LIBERAL INTELLIGENTSIA can TRIUMPHANTLY come back to Labour and continue to ignore the plight of the Palestinians and the racist actions of the state of Israel. "Corbyn was a blip", "what were we thinking", "let's not make this mistake again", "socialism doesn't work" :side-eye: etc. Champagne, darling?
     
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  4. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Is it possible that he's maybe just a smarter political operator than Corbyn and is avoiding the obvious dog whistles?

    Israel ain't going anywhere, it's hard to see what he can achieve by jumping into a hopeless trap over it? I think distancing himself as far possible from the Richard Burgon wing is absolutely the right move at this point. He can do more for Palestine through soft politics than through grandstanding.

    Also, the whole unconvinced by Corbyn = champagne socialist thing is really boring at this point. You had FIVE YEARS of the man. Please tell me we don't need another eight of people grousing about how he woz stitched up.
     
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  5. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    I can certainly see how unquestioningly bowing to people and groups that have exerted significant political pressure to normalise the idea that anti-Zionism is the exact same thing as hatred against Jewish people will allow for nuanced debate and really allow Palestinians to have their voices heard!
     
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  6. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Well, first off, the open letter you shared was very vaguely sourced and clearly wasn't in any way neutral. I'd be surprised if he went as far as you're accusing him of being.

    But also, Labour's reputation in the Jewish community is the absolute pits right now. He's on damage control, and I think he's right to try to put a very clear line between Labour under Corbyn and Labour now. I know it's not a popular word in these parts, but let's try to take a slightly more NUANCED view of what agenda Keir is putting out when we have a few years of distance from the last election and he's properly bedded in. Not everything is black and white. Seeing things that way is how we got into this mess in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  7. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    I don't know if coming down on anti-zionism as anti-semitism IS smart political operating though. There are lots of people in the Labour Party with valid criticism of the Israeli government's actions, and for a lot of people, especially those with a link to Palestine, it's a very personal issue they feel passionate about, just as it is for many Jewish people. It puts him in a position where he has to investigate and eject anti-zionism to keep his own pledge against anti-semitism... And isn't that just backing the party into a very tight corner?
     
  8. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    To be brutally blunt, why should we as members of the British left wing, be constantly associated with a problem many miles away with virtually no connection to the UK? I get it, but I pick my battles and this isn't one of them.
     
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  9. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    Your mileage may vary but for me being opposed to imperialism should be absolutely fundamental to anyone who claims to be on the left, and surely solidarity with an oppressed people should go without saying? I understand that it's a messy situation to wade into and there's a lot of concern about what can be said and how to say things, but that's part of the point - weaponising the language of identity politics to attempt to smear anyone who speaks out as a racist is the end game here, and as we saw it can be a very effective tactic. I'm concerned about that kind of thing really taking root in Labour (if it isn't already too late), as it will flatten the debate even more.
     
  10. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    And not only will it flatten debate, but it's going to alienate the poc and anti-racists who have kept the party afloat as everyone else has been busy critiquing and abandoning it. The first rule of anti-racist has to be anti-imperialism. But how can Labour be taken seriously as a political force if it results in the exodus of those people - particularly people of colour? Figures like Lisa Nandy have already done plenty to alienate them.
     
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  11. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    At the end of the day, the smear campaign against Corbyn was hugely effective, and I've never denied it exists. But however much fire there may or may not have been behind the smoke, he handled it absolutely appallingly and it was one of many major factors in costing the Labour party an election. The old saying about the definition of insanity holds true here. The Labour party is no friend to Palestine as an ineffectual protest party with no prospect of wielding the power to enact real change.
     
  12. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    This is my favourite bit from the report I've seen so far:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    "They're not Jewish" :basil: What a LOON.
     
  13. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    Britain created the problem in the first place! The Balfour declaration is the start of the current conflict.
     
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  14. Suedey

    Suedey The name is Rosé. Champagne Rosé.

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    Are you fundamentally opposed to the idea of the existence of Israel then?
     
  15. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea of colonial Britain uprooting the indigenous people of a land and denying them their rights so they could create the state of Israel. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
     
  16. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    I'm also being charitable when I say "uprooting" because thousands of Palestinians were massacred and their villages were burnt to the ground so Jewish populations who were not indigenous to the land could settle there.
     
  17. Penelope

    Penelope STYLISH BUT ILLEGAL

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    The idea that Israel only exists because of Balfour is a little historically inaccurate. Aliyah were happening for a long time before Balfour. Plus, you know, there's the whole inconvenient fact of the Jews originally being from there, if we're going to enter the indigenous issue.
     
  18. Penelope

    Penelope STYLISH BUT ILLEGAL

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    And yet why does nobody ever seem to carry this energy for the United States, Australia and New Zealand? Why is it always the JEWISH one where there actually was a historical claim to indigeneity and where there was, you know, a FUCKING GENOCIDE to be escaped, that people carry the full "THIS STATE SHOULD NOT EXIST" energy for? :rolleyes:
     
  19. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    White Orthodox Jews with no direct ties and hundreds of years of lineage in Russia or Germany having an instant claim to the land over the people who had been living there for generations? No way Jose.
     
  20. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    Because the conflict is still ongoing and they are holding Palestinians RANSOM AT GUNPOINT in their own land?

    Talk about DEFLECTING bringing up the atrocities of OH WOW ONCE AGAIN WHITE BRITISH COLONISERS in other parts of the world.

    I have a lot of sympathy for what happened to Jewish people in WW2. I cannot begin to imagine the collective trauma. But you don't get a free pass to uproot a whole community of people to make up for it.
     
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  21. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    I struggle to understand what you're actually proposing here? That Israel cease to be? That Western governments isolate them North Korea style? Because at the end of the day, rightly or wrongly, here in 2020 Israel DOES exist. It's never, ever going to go away. Do Western governments prop them up too much and ignore flagrant human rights violations? Absolutely. But Netanyahu's grip on power is severely weakening even despite that.

    I was in Israel last year. My - admittedly subjective - experience was that young, metropolitan Israelis view the Palestine situation much the way young, metropolitan British people view Brexit, as a source of deep shame and embarrassment. I do have hope that the situation can improve, but it's going to require a very careful hand, and it has to allow for the people of Israel to make that decision collectively. Turning them into global pariahs will only exacerbate the problem, and any Western leader who wants to do something good for the Palestinians has to be able to work constructively with Israel. At the end of the day, I think Starmer would likely be better news for Palestine than Johnson. I don't think Corbyn, had he managed to become PM, would have achieved very much at all beyond most likely seriously alienating a significant world power and being yet another useful idiot for Netanyahu and co. ("Britain's antisemitic PM wants us to lose our statehood!" etc.)
     
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  22. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    Vote COB
     
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  23. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    "The people of Israel" do not have to "reach a decision" on the future of the Palestinians they are holding ransom. The Palestinians have a right to self-determination, whether the Israelis like it or not DOES NOT MATTER, it's a basic human right recognised by the UN and international law.

    And I'll take your cwej Book of Stats about how young Israelis see the occupation with a pinch of SALT, although sorry if I have to CRINGE at the comparison between a self-inflicted political decision like Brexit with living under occupation for +50 years, being detained in prison / having your house demolished / your land stolen from you / your business shut down / your water supply controlled / your family members killed etc. at the whim of another state. Having worked in the area, I can tell you that my own Book of Stats is a lot different than yours. No offense but maybe I had to ask more difficult questions like "why is my Palestinian colleague not allowed to come work with me in this project in East Jerusalem (where his dad who he's seen three times in 5 years lives)?" to a laughing 18 year-old Israeli girl with a gun the size of her legs.
     
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  24. Peekaboo

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    Can I just say the whole "THEY'RE ALREADY THERE WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO" argument is something that I hear A LOT from British people also when discussing Northern Ireland and even the Falklands - is this a common line of argument they teach at school or what? It's not like the Irish or the Palestinians haven't spent DECADES denouncing the situation! Just because you've got away with doing something WRONG for decades doesn't mean it's now okay. And no, that doesn't mean EXPELLING ALL PROTESTANTS and ABOLISHING ISRAEL, it means giving the aggrieved party what they are owed.
     
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  25. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    Oh and one last thing because FUCK ME if I'm typing so much ever again on Moopy but I'm not claiming to be the authority on this subject and god knows it's a complex one, but after reading, listening and working with many people involved in the conflict my support for the Palestinian cause comes from a position of INDIGNITY at the ONGOING and FLAGRANT abuse of power over them. I know a lot of people have strong opinions and emotional reactions to Israel and I respect that too, but you cannot deny what Palestinians have gone through. It is my belief that if you want to truly legitimate and ultimately liberate Israel, you need to liberate the Palestinians too.
     
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  26. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    And how, practically speaking, do you propose that this happens?
     
  27. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Just to be clear, I think the treatment of the Palestinians is utterly appalling and I 100% agree that they have a right to self determination.

    I'm just trying to look at things from the perspective of how best that aim can realistically be served without igniting World War 3. It seems to me that you can either work with Israel to make a two-state solution economically and politically in their best interests, or you can point a gun at them and risk the entire world blowing up.
     
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  28. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    I don't mean to be glib but after HALF A CENTURY there's plenty of LITERATURE on the subject if you want to educate yourself, I am not going to type up here the FOLLOW-UPS to the OSLO ACCORDS. I would recommend a book by Uri Avnery called Israel's Vicious Circle which I found to be pretty illuminating. There's also an American journalist who I had the chance to speak with in Jerusalem called Nathan Thrall - he published an overview of the last 40 years of the conflict called The Only Language They Understand that argues the thesis that only external pressure will make Israel change tack since currently they have everything they want in all but official recognition - again, it resonated a lot with what I believe.
     
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  29. Beverley

    Beverley I Don't Wanna Change A THI-ING

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    A lot of people are quite vocal now about how a two-state solution isn't even a viable one, that Israel needs to become a state where the Palestinians and Jews have parity. It's a compelling argument - I struggle to see a situation (should the political status quo remain in the West) where we will be able to negotiate terms for a two-state solution that don't continue to fuck the Palestinians over.
     
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  30. Penelope

    Penelope STYLISH BUT ILLEGAL

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    A one-state solution where Jews can be outvoted in their own state set up for their protection - with 'drive the Jews into the sea' taught in the schools of a lot of Palestinians! - is completely non-negotiable. The Israeli right's settlements project is making a two-state solution harder, but ultimately it's the only viable one that could ever work. The problem is that it can only ever happen when Likud isn't in power, as they've spent the last decade trying to wreck the prospect of it.
     
  31. Penelope

    Penelope STYLISH BUT ILLEGAL

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    I mean, it kind of applies given how much of this is driven by Likud and Hamas caught in an extreme death-dance with each other to make a two-state solution non-viable. The last time there was a move from Israel towards a two-state solution, under Kadima when Sharon unilaterally disengaged from Gaza and destroyed the Israeli settlements there? Hamas going on the offensive and using it to try rain hell down on the likes of Sderot with rockets. Because Hamas don't want Israel to exist - they want a one-state solution of Palestine being the only state in the area.

    It made peace and a two-state solution harder. The other side gets more of what it wants and then uses it to launch attacks on you? No human group on earth is going will realistically ever respond to that by continuing to do more of it. If a group thinks their safety is at risk by giving to the other side's demands, it's going to be discouraged from ever doing it. That's the whole reason it's locked in a horrendous race to the bottom of inhumanity.
     
  32. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    The Board of Deputies of British Jews are calling for the suspension of Diane Abbot and Bell Ribeiro-Addy for being in a zoom call with activists "expelled from the party for anti-semitism."



    Sir Keir must show a commitment to anti-racism by... Sacking two black women for being in a public meeting.
     
  33. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    Oh good grief! In fact... :goodgrief:
     
  34. Peekaboo

    Peekaboo User

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    The Jewish Chronicle? I thought that WHORE died!
     
  35. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...figure-sum-and-apologises-in-antisemitism-row

    Rumours circulating that Corbyn will also lose the whip when the results of the EHRC investigation are published...
     
  36. ZenGiraffe

    ZenGiraffe #Zengaboys

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    Unless there is something specifically and especially damning about him, surely that can only lead to a counterproductive shitshow? I appreciate that Starmer needs to look tough and put it to bed, but removing the whip from the former leader is just an invitation for internal division once again.
     
  37. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    Lmao good luck with that.
     
  38. Kate

    Kate SLAGS 4 TAGS

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    I need a final kick to resign my membership (only laziness stopped me after the RLB sacking). That would definitely do it.
     
  39. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    GOOD RIDDANCE!
     
  40. jivafox

    jivafox chalamet & chill

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    I used to wonder what people who said they felt “politically homeless” were blathering on about before. Now I know! :D
     

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