Scottish Independence Debate

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by SDF, Feb 23, 2013.

?

Independence?

Poll closed Sep 18, 2014.
  1. I am Scottish - YES

    4.3%
  2. I am Scottish - NO

    12.9%
  3. I am Scottish - DON'T KNOW

    1.4%
  4. I am British (not Scottish) - YES

    7.1%
  5. I am British (not Scottish) - NO

    44.3%
  6. I am British (not Scottish) - DON'T KNOW

    8.6%
  7. I am not British - YES

    2.9%
  8. I am not British - NO

    5.7%
  9. I am not British - DON'T KNOW

    12.9%
  1. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    So apart from Germany or Austria all the countries with a AAA credit rating are either small countries or have gained their independence from Britain. Better together, indeed. :eyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  2. RobotBoy

    RobotBoy BANG BANG

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    :o

    Are you in favour of independence!?
     
  3. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    For me, it is about democracy. Its about where you want power to lie. If you believe the best people to make decisions about Scotlands future are the ones who live here, then there is only one option.
     
  4. funky

    funky INCAPABLE

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    Enjoy your future as a third world country.
     
  5. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    I love how many debates descend into the Scottish Independence debate.
     
  6. RobotBoy

    RobotBoy BANG BANG

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    With attitudes like THAT from English people, I wonder why there's an appetite at all for independence within Scotland. :eyes:
     
  7. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    Poor Scotland, if Thatcher hadn't snatched their North Sea oil like the SNATCHER she is they could have had the world.
     
  8. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Oh is heroin and tramps piss taxed now?
     
  9. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    I think the negativity is really unhelpful. The campaign for the union has produced very little material about what is positive about being a part of the UK, and instead has focused on attacking Alex Salmond and the SNP, accusing Scots of hating English people or similar pointlessness. Of course, independence is an idea proposed by the SNP but an independent Scotland would not necessarily be governed until the end of time by an SNP administration. The SNP is a really diverse party, in that the one thing that holds all of it's various members together is the idea of independence. If that was achieved, there is a chance that the Scottish party political system could be really shaken up and the SNP could potentially split due to a lack of common purpose among it's members.

    In terms a political ideology, it's completely understandable that people in Scotland are pissed off that we are governed by Tories despite having only one Tory MP. It's a complete failure of democracy. It's also not ridiculous that Scotland might respond to an opportunity to escape the damage currently being inflicted across the UK, but I really think one of the failures of the Yes campaign/the SNP is to talk about poor Westminster decisions as if they're only being directed towards Scotland when it's clearly affecting people that didn't vote Tory across the UK and the difference is that Scotland are the only ones being offered a choice to opt out of it. I also think that it is overstated how poorly Scotland could perform economically. I don't like rambling on about the figures that the SNP trot out on a regular basis as SDF has, but there's no denying that the country has some resources and not just oil either. People on both sides should acknowledge that there ARE independent countries that are smaller/have less people and do alright with fewer resources than Scotland. However, I absolutely loathe all the chat about "snatching Scotland's oil" and the like and we desperately need to escape that kind of tedium.

    And i'd say that my politics is more likely to be enacted in the context of the Scottish Parliament than by Labour at Westminster. Such as, the other day I was reading about Ed Miliband's trip to Denmark to look into their systems of childcare and how he was talking about Denmark's childcare as a system to learn from... but there's just no discussion as to how this would would in a comparatively lower system of tax and within current Westminster spending priorities. In that sense, at independent Scotland COULD have the chance to start afresh with it's tax system, spending priorities and technically could radicalise governance in a way that would make European policy-learning like that far more feasible. But of course, we also need to think hard about whether that could all be afforded and realistic possibility of it ever taking place with our society and with our current political parties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  10. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    What are the valuable resources other than oil?


    Wind, whisky and haggis?
     
  11. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Travis.
     
  12. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    Omg - we'd be rid of Lulu once and for all.
     
  13. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    I'd give up the oil if they kept Lulu in Edinburgh Castle.
     
  14. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    There's no denying Scotland's potential for renewable energy, though I of course remain aware that the comprehensive development of that sort of thing requires a lot of investment. It's something that I feel the UK as a whole have been far too slow on the uptake of considering it's prospective future value. Beyond that, I don't see how Scotland could be considered to fare worse than other sections of the UK outside London and the South East. I'm not a huge nationalist or anything. I was just making a point about how I believe that Scotland's lack of potential is often overstated (as with Funky's throwaway remark up the page.)

    I'm pretty sure you could probably just lock Lulu in the Tower of London now.
     
  15. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Just throw her in the sea. Launching her into space would be perfect.
     
  16. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    We can't lock her in the tower, it'd be like Mary Queen of Scots all over again. We'll have to have her executed.
     
  17. Indie

    Indie Great Tits

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    To be fair, it's exactly how democracy works.

    Should Texas become independent because they've got a Democrat President they didn't vote for?
     
  18. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    In any case, there are 12 coalition MPs from Scotland.
     
  19. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    Not necessarily, but it's not really the same situation at all. It's always been my opinion the electoral system in the US is flawed though. My own personal preference would be further devolution for Scotland, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland if they wanted it too. However, it feel obvious that that is something that is not on the cards. It's not something that I wanted to be on the ballot for the independence referendum, but rather an option that could be discussed as opposed to the status quo. This is mainly because polling shows that this is what people actually want.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  20. Indie

    Indie Great Tits

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    The US was just an example.

    But the point is, that in any democracy you can drill down to whatever level and find a group of people who may not feel their views are represented. Should the North West want to become independent because they voted mostly for Labour?
     
  21. Penelope

    Penelope Look right for CALMING INFLUENCE

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    I imagine because replacing him would effectively put a spear through the entire project which defines his government. It'd be the good thing to do to get his popularity up, but I think he's far too proud to take an action which would basically just be saying he was entirely wrong up until this point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  22. funky

    funky INCAPABLE

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    Like GDP per head counts for much. I don't recall Monaco being invited to join the G8. Independence is all very well and good if you're Singapore.

    Scotland is not Singapore.

    I love Scotland. I think it would be disastrous for all parts of the UK for it to devolve. Including England.
     
  23. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    Not necessarily, but I do feel that the North of England is particularly short-changed by the set-up we have just now. Some of the motivation for devolution in Scotland and Wales was the poor representation that the largely Labour-voting countries received at Westminster during a Tory administration as well as the idea of having governance closer to home. Now the Welsh and Scottish parliaments have quite a number of significant powers and the chance to make decisions for themselves, whereas the largely Labour-voting north still has to deal with the same old shit. Though of course, the north famously opposed John Prescott's plans for regional assemblies which stopped the whole idea in it's tracks and turned it into a bit of a non-starter. I've always thought that a bit of a shame.

    I suppose the reason there is support for an independent Scotland where there isn't in somewhere like the north of England or other regions of countries boils down to a couple of things. The Labour politician George Robertson famously said that devolution would "kill nationalism stone dead" and stop independence in it's tracks. On the contrary, it could be that because Scotland already has a parliament that the people think there is potential to make decisions in a broader range of areas, as indicated by the majority support for more powers given to the Scottish Parliament. I also think that it's because Scotland has a national parliament already that the idea of independence has become more plausible to people as a genuine possibility, even if it isn't garnering some of the previous figures of support. I guess you can also bring in the fact that Scotland (as with Wales, England etc) is considered quite widely as it's own country rather than just a region of a larger one, albeit only self-governing in some areas. Add to that the separate system of Scottish law and an increasing number of Scotland-specific institutions and organisations and that probably explains why people here are more likely consider the idea of full self-governance than people in the North West, to use your example. I'm not saying this is a reason that it should be supported, but just trying to explain why it's off the ground.

    I get your point there but that entirely depends if people are concerned about their country being a big player on the international stage. I can certainly see Scotland being a less militaristic... and one that would most likely not have gotten involved with Iraq of Afghanistan. It also depends on whether you approve of the way that the UK Government approach that kind of thing. An independent Scotland's relations with the EU would always be less influential than the UK, but probably less pointlessly fraught than Cameron is playing it at the moment. There's no denying the multiple disadvantages that come from not being a big player on the world stage though. The economic decision-making factors certainly, but also the influence in areas of international human rights and the ability to contribute aid to Africa and all of that, which would be disappointing to not be a part of.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  24. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    Yes, GDP is a crude measure but on wealth, inequality, well being and health indicators small countries perform better.

    As much as it is good for Scottish democracy, it is good for UK democracy generally. As much as Scotland has distinct political priorities, so does the rest of the UK, such as the current debate over the EU. Equally social reform in Scotland can influence social reform in the rest of the UK. Such as how Scotland is leading the way with same sex marriage.
     
  25. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    The only thing I have, Lulu aside in favour of Scottish Independence is that they hold sway over our politics and we barely get a say.
     
  26. funky

    funky INCAPABLE

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    Im more than happy for Scotland to rule Scotland, as long as we can remain the UK.

    State law, like America for example. Not sure of the ins and outs but it's better than complete devolution IMO
     
  27. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    We need a Scottish Independence topic... Such an easy one to fall in to...
     
  28. Indie

    Indie Great Tits

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    SOME small countries.

    Iceland and Ireland haven't done so great over the last ten years.
     
  29. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    In terms of overall wellbeing the UN still puts Ireland as 7th in the world and Iceland as 14th. The UK is 28th.

    Iceland has seen 7 straight quarters of growth, unlike the UK, which is still feeling the effects of a double dip recession.

    Unlike the UK, Iceland bailed out it's people not the banks.

    Iceland is in the process of rewriting their constitution. This will put power back in to the hands of the people in light of the financial crisis. It is this radical approach that an independent Scotland could take.

    The IMF has said that in 2013 Ireland will be one of only a few in the Eurozone to post growth this year.

    These countries show smaller economies are more nimble and have more cohesive societies.
     
  30. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    It doesn't SHOW anything. If you believe independence isn't a massive economic gamble, you're a fool.
     
  31. Indie

    Indie Great Tits

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    I agree it's easier to maintain a small country in this way.

    Not difficult to have growth after tanking so much. Also, notice you didn't mention Ireland here. What about Greece? Estonia? Lesotho? Albania?

    Interesting statement. I guess we'll never know what happens the other way around (because the UK is not Iceland) but i think we did the right thing.

    Well good for Iceland/Scotland.

    I've just googled that. "Of the countries that are under a euro zone/IMF financing programme, only Ireland will show growth this year and next, expanding 0.4 percent and 1.4 percent respectively."

    That's a very different thing. You really need to state your source material so it can be viewed objectively.

    "smaller economies are more nimble" - perhaps true, but also more fragile. Germany, France, UK. Big counties which were bashed but survived. Greece, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal. Smaller countries which required international bailout.
    "have more cohesive societies" - sorry, but these are just words. I don't see any evidence of this.
     
  32. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock wo ist der party?

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    Do you mean with the West Lothian question and the issue of Scottish MPs participating in votes that only affect England and Wales?
     
  33. Indie

    Indie Great Tits

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    It's worth pointing out at this stage that I don't mind either way if Scotland is independent or not. I just disagree with any overwhelming notion that Scotland would be significantly better (or worse) off
     
  34. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Indeed. I forgot it had a proper name. I mean we had a Scottish PM, who basically had FUCK ALL power in the country of his constituency. Why there isn't a devolved English Parliament I'm not sure... I guess that would spell the death knell for the United Kingdom. England IS the UK for all intents and purposes, it's just no one ever says it...
     
  35. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    I'm also curious as to why there is no equally strong Welsh Independence movement. I guess they've found an inspiring figurehead like Salmond.

    And what about Northern Ireland? I quite like the idea of it being an independent country, separate from Eire and the UK.
     
  36. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Can we have a poll please?

    I personally do not want Scotland to leave the UK, but it's like a relationship. If your BF wants to dump you, there is no point chaining him to a radiator and thinking that things will get better.
     
  37. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Why? :D

    I'm not particularly bothered about NI either way, except for the potential extreme ramifications of a change in the status quo. It's a dump!
     
  38. Gangsta Nancy Lam

    Gangsta Nancy Lam mess

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    I'm up for Scottish independence so I can have dual nationality on my passport. The dream. I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way though.
     
  39. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    BF is a bit of an exaggeration. It's more like when your cleaner wants to move on.
     
  40. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Wouldn't that be a better analogy for the mass exodus of all Zimbabweans?
     

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