Scottish Independence Debate

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by SDF, Feb 23, 2013.

?

Independence?

Poll closed Sep 18, 2014.
  1. I am Scottish - YES

    4.3%
  2. I am Scottish - NO

    12.9%
  3. I am Scottish - DON'T KNOW

    1.4%
  4. I am British (not Scottish) - YES

    7.1%
  5. I am British (not Scottish) - NO

    44.3%
  6. I am British (not Scottish) - DON'T KNOW

    8.6%
  7. I am not British - YES

    2.9%
  8. I am not British - NO

    5.7%
  9. I am not British - DON'T KNOW

    12.9%
  1. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    I am certainly suspicious of the claims that Scotland would be significantly better off, but I guess there is an argument to be made for being similarly well off or slightly better off but with the ability to set and raise taxes from whatever money the country generates and make decisions regarding how said money is spent.

    There has been talk of an English Parliament, but it hasn't taken off for a couple of reasons. First of all, i'm pretty sure that the whole policy idea is attached to one of the unfavourable fringe parties like UKIP or someone and secondly is exactly as you said. The issue with the West Lothian question. I agree that Scottish MPs should not vote on issues that are England and Wales only, but I guess the problem there for people like ourselves is that it is mostly Scottish Labour MPs that are doing so. Apart from that there's just the one Tory, the Lib Dems and the SNP who abstain on English and Welsh votes already. I wouldn't say Gordon Brown had NO power in Scotland though, as there are still a quite a swathe of reserved matters even if big things like health, education and justice are devolved. I think you hit the nail on the head there. The UK is an entity of 4 partners but England is just so much bigger than the other four in terms of population. I was interested to hear you say that England sometimes has little influence in parliament, as it's my opinion that we've kind of got ourselves in a position electorally where the whim of the south of England basically decides the government. Not one seat changed hands in Scotland at the General Election of 2010, which is much the contrast to down in the South. You can basically trust Scotland (and the North) to always vote Labour, and Lib Dem to an extent.

    Off the top of my head, i'd say it could be because Wales still has far more joint institutions with England and less devolved powers. Their politics are beginning to mirror England's a little more, in a way that Scotland's aren't. It's interesting what you say about Salmond though... i'd say he's as much a boon to the independence campaign as an albatross around it's neck. Many people and a great deal of the media absolutely despise the man. The way that both camps are playing it is really interesting actually. The Yes Scotland campaign is deliberately not attaching itself to or being specifically ran by a political party and none of their campaign materials have an SNP logo or anything like that, but Better Together are headed by Alastair Darling and aren't shying away from using Labour party symbolism.

    I don't think that will happen, but i've always thought that this would be one of the few ways to resolve the conflict once and for all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  2. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    Wow there's a lot going on in this thread, my brain can't take it all in!

    I am quite anti independence. I think some of the claims that are being made are nothing short of ridiculous. I read that Alex Salmond mentions Norway as a good example of how Scotland could become. Norway has nothing like the social, crime or health issues Scotland has. Scotland must also be heavily subsidised, how else can we afford free education, no bridge tolls, free eye tests for everyone and free prescriptions? I am pretty sure not all of that would be sustainable in an independent country.
     
  3. monsta

    monsta CAUGHT YOUR FEVER

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    I cannot wait for a new government to reinstate prescription charges.

    It's fucking ridiculous.
     
  4. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    I agree that some of the over-the-top arguments do down any plausible assertions that such a campaign has to make. I do think though, as I said up the page, that there would be a lot more opportunity to policy-learn from individual countries like Norway in a completely new framework in a way that there isn't now.

    I think it's more about what they choose to spend the money on. People forget that the money allocated to the devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and NI is adjusted departmentally. They are only allowed to spend the percentage of the overall budget that England are spending in that area. Therefore, if Westminster decide to slash budgets dramatically in education (as they have done), then Scotland's education budget goes down to. They just have to make decisions about where the money goes within that department. I do think free tuition in Scotland is probably coming at the expense of the recent budget cuts to colleges.

    In terms of the taxes Scotland contributes, I really have NO IDEA. So many figures are bandied around that it's hard to know the truth.

    I obviously know less about it than you, being in the profession you're in, but I thought the whole point of it was the argument that there are always select groups of people that will be exempt from prescription charges, and that administrating their exemption from the rest of the population that does pay is more/almost as expensive as offering it universally? It's like with the Winter Fuel Payments. There have been multiple cries for these to be withdrawn for wealthier old people, but conducting the means-testing in the first place is more expensive than just paying out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  5. Eileen

    Eileen All the better to see you with, my dear.

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    This. I'm interested to hear what the Scots who live in Scotland think.

    I think the options should be:

    I live in Scotland and want independence
    I live in Scotland and don't want independence
    I am Scottish, live outside Scotland and want independence
    I am Scottish, live outside Scotland and don't want independence
    I am not Scottish and want independence
    I am not Scottish and don't want independence
     
  6. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    I'm curious as well.
     
  7. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    Oh no you're not
     
  8. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    I am a bit Scottish, live outside Scotland, don't want independence but might move there if they get it
     
  9. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    ... option PLEASE.
     
  10. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    I'm not Scottish, don't care if they become independent, but if they do i will campaign for Yorkshire independence
     
  11. Eileen

    Eileen All the better to see you with, my dear.

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    The only Scot I speak to on a regular basis IRL is a Tory and lives in Surrey so I need some other opinions.
     
  12. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    ?

    Still a lack of poll but I can try and elaborate based on my own opinions and discussions i've had with my own friends. Up until relatively recently, I couldn't think of one friend I had that even vaguely supported independence. As the date approaches, a few more are talking about it and some supporters have come out of the woodwork. I would say that the split of likely yes/no votes is 40/60 but too many of my friends appear completely undecided or simply haven't really thought about it to state that definitively.

    By in large, i'd say the ones who support it tend to be the ones that have given it some thought. This is not to say that those who don't support independence have not thought about it as I know many in that group as well... it's just that there's a far greater "no by default" factor than there is a "yes by default" factor, in my experience.

    As farcical as this sounds for such a big question, I genuinely think the majority of decision-making will be done in the three months approaching the vote.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  13. Eileen

    Eileen All the better to see you with, my dear.

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    Have you made up your mind yet? Reading your posts, you seem to be firmly in the yes camp.
     
  14. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    I still have quite a lot of problems with party politics and am not involved with it but I have VERY GRADUALLY began to move over in favour of "yes" but many of my reasons are very personal, I think. As a generation, I tend to think that my age group actually have a lot LESS to lose from independence than people who are older. I've heard arguments to the contrary, but my overriding belief through it all is that people my age have got a bit of a rough deal at the moment and it's hard to see what my generation is trying to protect in this case. I also feel that independence is something of an inevitability within my lifetime, especially if there is further devolution enacted after a potential "no" vote. So in that case, it's an instance of deciding whether I want it now or when i'm middle-aged.

    I think a hell of a lot of misinformation exists around the debate. This thread has quite a few people suggesting that Scotland would sink without trace, but even the official "no" supporting camp has moved beyond that kind of assertion. The argument now is more about whether Scotland would be a better rather than just able to cope.

    I don't rule out the possibility of my mind being changed if some persuasive enough information came out against the case for independence. That hasn't happened thus far. I just can't help but feel that if independence was an almost certain disaster, the Treasury would surely be to prove so with the information they are privy to. This could seriously blight the "Yes" campaign, but no such information has come to light yet. I'm absolutely open to it. All I really want is freedom on information and a fair debate.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  15. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    POLL ADDED
     
  16. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    Out of all my friends, I can think of ONE who is in the YES camp, pretty much everyone else I know is in the NO camp, myself included.

    I just think the SNP have delusions of grandeur, I can't see any benefit to Scotland at all for becoming independent. It's not as if there is a NEED for it, unlike in other countries around the world. It would cause FAR too many issues around such things as economy, currency, EU membership etc, I really think Scotland have it good right now with the set up, and it seems like the SNP haven't fully thought everything through - the issue around EU membership and which currency they would use is a prime example. For example, they want to keep (or peg against) the Pound - but then they would have NO say in the economy in the rest of the UK and therefore any changes that happened with the economy would affect Scotland too but they'd have no say in it. EU membership is another - the SNP have assumed they will automatically become members, the EU have told them this is not the case and they will have to apply, and one of the requirements for new members is they MUST join the Euro.

    These are just two examples I can think of, and I seriously think Scotland will be worse off if we leave the Union. I'm not a Tory supporter by any means whatsover, but I'm happy being British, and I'd like it to stay that way.
     
  17. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    I've voted "British - No" but that's purely selfish. I don't want perpetual Toryism :(
     
  18. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    THIS!

    I theory I don't mind. It won't affect my life and I quite like the idea of it anyway. The UK is an anomaly anyway. Are we four countries or one? Scottish independence will inevitably lead to the break up of the UK IMO and therefore as you say Tories in charge forever and ever and ever - AWFUL.

    I assume we'd still have loads of shared stuff. There is much from media to military. You can't just separate everything overnight. We'll still be neighbours. And what about the OIL?
     
  19. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    I had lunch with a Scot while I was in London who made the point to me that all the Scots with ambition move to London anyway. I had to agree! :disco:
     
  20. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    See, i'm one of the few who actually thinks it's fuck all to do with national identity. The currency situation is interesting, but the idea that Scotland has any influence over what happens NOW is also questionable. EU membership is a big one too. I personally DO think we'd have to re-apply, but also think that the chance of being denied admittance are minimal. The economic argument is interesting too, but i've partly explained my position above. Essentially, the UK economy as of right now is bumping along the bottom anyway and my generation are bearing the brunt of that.

    This is a big myth as well. Only the outcome of (I think) two elections since the war have been changed by Scottish votes.

    This is a big factor for me. I'm pretty certain that a cultural and social union would remain strong after independence.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  21. Eileen

    Eileen All the better to see you with, my dear.

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    I heard this somewhere but I can't remember where so forgive the vagueness: there has only been one election since the 2nd world war (or maybe from some other time period) where how the vote has been cast in Scotland has swayed the outcome of the election in the entire country.

    i.e. if Scotland leaves, we won't necessarily get perpetual Toryism.
     
  22. Eileen

    Eileen All the better to see you with, my dear.

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    You beat me to it :basil:
     
  23. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    One. HM Government should stop pandering or educating otherwise.
     
  24. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    When London declares independence, then you'll get a Tory England!
     
  25. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    We have four national football teams... Like it or not, at least two of those four 'member countries' have incredibly strong national identities...
     
  26. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    We'll have to split England into North & South. I'm moving North.
     
  27. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    I have never seen such a load of bollocks as the 'Independent London' thing. Cornwall has more chance. Scrap that Essex has more chance...
     
  28. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    Does he feel angry that he is disenfranchised?

    Any Scot who takes advantage of his right to live and work in London loses their right to vote in this referendum.
     
  29. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Either way, I'm against it all in all, but curious to see how it pans out.
     
  30. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    Three. Out of eighteen.

    that's still FAR TOO MANY.

    The Conservatives would have outright won in 2010 if it wasn't for Scotland.
     
  31. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    The national identity question is an odd one. I think the thing about British identity is that many of it's cultural markers are interchangeable with what defines Englishness. I would not say the same about what defines being Scottish or what defines being Welsh.
     
  32. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Which ones would they have won? You can never say it would just been one or two. It could have changed history. Although the only difference now, would be the Lib Dems would still be winning by-elections.
     
  33. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    It's not just a simple case of becoming independent and then still sharing things such as media and military - if we are going to continue to share lots of things, then what's the fucking point of being independent? I can't think of many other countries that still share things like that - apart from SAS in the Scandi countries. Reharding the currency situation, our influence MAY be minimal but it's still THERE - if there was independence, there wouldn't be. And I can't see them agreeing to join the Euro, so where does that leave EU membership?

    It seems the SNP want their cake and eat it, and I'm afraid that just won't work. If they want independence they're going to have to learn to stand on their own two feet without being supported from down south.
     
  34. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    British=English.
     
  35. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Oh yeah would EU membership be automatic? I hope not. Because they actually like Europe. That'll learn them.
     
  36. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    1964, 1974 and 2010. According to the source i found.
     
  37. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    It will be interesting to see how things develop. It's true that we live in a two-speed Britain. London, more so than any other European city, could legitimately survive like Hong Kong or Singapore as a city state.
     
  38. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    He doesn't care. He sees no future for himself in Scotland, and feels that the impact it would have on his life would be minor in reality.
     
  39. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    So Harold Wilson would have been pretty much wiped from history, Ted Heath PM for nearly a decade and Alex Douglas-Home would no be hated instead of forgotten. Homosexuality and abortion would have probably been illegal for years after...

    I'd say it's a nightmare scenario.
     
  40. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    I struggle to get past the thought that it's all a load of nationalistic chip-on-shoulder English-hating bollocks.
     

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