Scottish Independence Debate

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by SDF, Feb 23, 2013.

?

Independence?

Poll closed Sep 18, 2014.
  1. I am Scottish - YES

    4.3%
  2. I am Scottish - NO

    12.9%
  3. I am Scottish - DON'T KNOW

    1.4%
  4. I am British (not Scottish) - YES

    7.1%
  5. I am British (not Scottish) - NO

    44.3%
  6. I am British (not Scottish) - DON'T KNOW

    8.6%
  7. I am not British - YES

    2.9%
  8. I am not British - NO

    5.7%
  9. I am not British - DON'T KNOW

    12.9%
  1. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    As much as I am probably going to vote TORY (sorry NOT sorry) in 2015, I wouldn't like there to be strong Tory majority in rUK. It's all about BALANCE.
     
  2. Queen of the Bay

    Queen of the Bay User

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    Awww that's beautiful actually.
    But I totally don't get why there is a discussion to change the flag. It could stay as it is. The blue could then be an historical reference to Scotland and an appreciation of what the Union has achieved together.
     
  3. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mar...endence-campaign_b_5825368.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

    Get Over Yourself, Scotland

    I'm sorry, I'm over this now. I'm tired of all the pandering to Scotland; the appeals from celebrities, the begging from politicians, the dire warnings from big business, the polite nudge from her Majesty the Queen. "Pleeeeease stay with us" has been the hysterical refrain since this all began. Well no more begging, no more dire warnings. I'm sorry, we don't need to beg. It's Scotland's mistake. Let's be very clear about this: Scotland is having a moment of national madness that it will regret for the foreseeable future. Scotland is sleepwalking into a catastrophic and irreversible decision. And now, after the endless grovelling, I'm inclined to call Scotland's bluff and say "just go". Scotland is a country that I adore, but she is letting herself down. Scotland is having a tantrum and behaving like a petulant teenager. And like a petulant teenager, she is neither big nor strong enough to go it alone. Get over yourself Scotland. You are a small country, deal with it.

    Don't get me wrong, by global comparison, England is small too. Wales and Northern Ireland are particularly small. But the key point is this: the United Kingdom is an acceptance of our relative smallness and a symbol of each nation's humility. It is by definition an admission that we all need each other; that what we have, with all its compromises, is better than any of us going it alone.

    What's so special about Scotland anyway? Well, a lot actually. I think it's one of the greatest nations in human history. For a small country, it has and continues to contribute a disproportionately large amount to the world. Scotland's offerings in science, medicine, technology, music, engineering, entertainment and art are unparalleled. That's not to mention the landscape, the cities, the drinks and the epic women.

    But that doesn't mean you have to break off and go it alone, causing discomfort for your neighbours and unadulterated pain for yourselves. The nationalists boast that Scotland's contribution to UK GDP is a handsome 9%. That means that 91% of the GDP that Scotland shares with the United Kingdom comes from outside Scotland. And they want to leave? Hmm. Good luck with that. If you were in a partnership with another business and they were bringing in 91% of the turnover and you were bringing in 9%, would you seriously be considering setting up on your own? Particularly if the profits were pooled equally, which in the United Kingdom they are. Every penny the Scots have generated in recent memory has been returned to the nation, via investment and public services.

    I just don't get it. England is the strong partner in this relationship and ought to be clamouring for independence. But there isn't even a whisper of it. England is the one which could realistically go it alone. The English would benefit hugely from sharing their resources with fewer people and acting in their own national interest. But it's not on the agenda south of the border. And why? Because England isn't caught up in some egocentric, poor me, nationalistic fervour that the Scots are currently getting drunk on. The English, the Welsh and the Northern Irish people gloomily and bleakly accept we are better together. It's like a long marriage. Some of the sparkle may have gone, but you like each other, you have lots in common and you're in a rare thing - a marriage that works.

    I know that's not very evangelical, but then the United Kingdom is not an evangelical idea. And therein lies its genius. It's never been ideological or rammed down anyone's throat. It's a sensible, practical arrangement, in itself a very British idea. And we can be honest - these islands aren't the force they once were. But that's ok. By working as a single entity, Britain has remained a stealth-like economic, military and cultural powerhouse in the world, reflected in its status as the sixth largest economy on the planet and a place the world often looks to for economic, diplomatic or creative inspiration.

    The Scots need to look at the English for a moment. England has every right to be up itself. London alone is one hell of a boast; some claim it to be the greatest city in the world. It's also stable. There is an argument to be made that England is the best integrated multicultural, multiracial society on the planet. Plus there's Shakespeare, Tim Berners-Lee and The Beatles. But the English don't do chest-beating, and have never done so. It's positively frowned upon. I still don't know when St George's Day is. England has accepted itself as part of the United Kingdom; she's left her ego at the door, as have the Welsh, as have Northern Ireland. It's time for the Scots to do the same.

    Calm down and grow up. You are a separate country, you are a proud and great nation, and one of the most fabulous I've ever known. I adore Scotland infinitely. I had the happiest four years of my life as an undergraduate at the University of Edinburgh, a prettier more culturally rich city you'll struggle to find. I owe Scotland my entire higher education and it pains me to see her make such an uneducated decision; Edinburgh itself is a seat of learning, not rampant, unguarded national emotion. Of course there are tensions and a careful redrawing of the economic and political boundaries for each nation are long overdue; devo-max, which sounds like a treatment for indigestion, looks to be an eminently sensible idea. We should definitely hand over new powers, so Scotland has a far greater say over how it is run. That would be good for England, Wales and NI too. But let's not throw the bairn out with the bath water. Let's not cut off our sporran to spite our kilt.

    So Scotland, I implore you. Sober up, so we can drink together again. Four fine nations, pooling our collective resources and talent for the greater good. The good of Great Britain. Our country, that we all share. Come back to the party Scotland. And please, don't make me beg.
     
  4. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    My God if we can keep the UJ if at all goes wrong in some or other than I'd be happy with that.
     
  5. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    LOVE THAT Louf
     
  6. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    I know, babe. As Ag said, this has been a PR disaster for Scotland in the eyes of the rest of the UK. It's all been a little Donetsk People's Republic for my liking.
     
  7. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    That article is shocking.

    The GDP comparison is bizarre. By way of GDP, Scotland would be the 15th wealthiest country in the world. The UK is the 18th. The suggestion we are walking away from "91%" of our GDP completely misses the point on which GDP is measured.

    Oh no let's forget about how unequal our society is (4th most unequal in the world) because London is great (so great we're not investing in high speed rail for you to get to and from the city, but we will make you pay for it) and don't you dare walk away from THE BEATLES.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  8. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival User

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    I don't know what pains me more, Louf being a Tory or a Gaga loon :(
     
  9. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival User

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    The green UJ is very Basque. Hate it.
     
  10. Queen of the Bay

    Queen of the Bay User

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    I think the green UJ is very Italian chic.
     
  11. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival User

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    Green is not chic. It reminds me of FUNGUS.

    [/MichelleVisage]
     
  12. PercyPig

    PercyPig The Last of Us

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  13. Jark

    Jark I... know... how bad you want this

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    Couldn't help but BALK at this bit

    Yeah, cos all of England's ethnic minorities are SO well integrated into society... It's not like there are entire postcodes where 90% of the inhabitants are Turkish, Pakistani etc, or schools where Muslim kids are educated and raised entirely separately from their white, black, Asian counterparts. Christ. The UK is the polar opposite of an integrated multicultural society. Switzerland is far more advanced in that respect.
     
  14. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Another good article

    http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...x-salmond-blind-you-to-yes-campaign-dark-side

    It has long been Scotland’s fate to be romanticised. Now the old habit is being given a new twist. The independence referendum campaign is being romanticised as a born-again democratic moment, even a model of how a new politics can replace the old. To read some accounts, it’s as though all Scotland has become what Bill Clinton once called the Hay festival, a Woodstock of the mind.

    Only a fool would deny this campaign is extraordinary. It has been incredibly engaging and incredibly engaged. This has been British politics of a sort that none of us has ever witnessed at an election – but then it’s not an election. Voter registration has soared. Turnout is expected to be spectacular by modern standards. And it’s true. Wherever you go in Scotland everyone is talking about it. You hear the conversation in the train, in the shops, in the pubs and on the streets. For a democrat, what’s not to like?

    But not all of it is good. There has been a dark side to the campaign too. That dark side shouldn’t be exaggerated, but it absolutely mustn’t be ignored either. It is part of the story. The referendum has not just been empowering but divisive. Indeed, the divisiveness may be its more enduring legacy. That’s one of the things about referendums. They bring a simplicity and false finality to the messy nuances of real life. It’s one of the reasons to mistrust them.

    Scotland’s divisions won’t evaporate in the morning sun as soon as the result is announced. The referendum is of course a huge shared experience. No one who has been part of it will ever forget these weeks. But you would be bold to say it has brought Scotland together. And it is far too soon to say what it has done to Britain. “I’ll be glad when it’s all over,” is an increasing refrain here.

    True, the bad stuff is rare and is widely scattered. And of course one shouldn’t get too uptight. It’s no surprise that tensions have risen as voting day neared and Ed Miliband got knocked off his stride on Tuesday. Heckling, of which I have heard a lot in the last week, is a necessary part of political life. Even a bit of egg-throwing, of the sort that Labour’s Jim Murphy suffered on the campaign trail, has its place. There is, after all, a lot at stake. So it is important to keep the disturbing bits in perspective.

    Nevertheless the tensions are part of the story too. And, contrary to what Alex Salmond insouciantly pretends, these are mostly coming from his side. It’s the yes voters who have the swagger, wave the flags, turn out the bigger crowds – and also who talk about quislings and traitors. It’s the no voters who tend to keep their heads down, who prefer not to put posters in their windows just to be on the safe side, and who find themselves on the receiving end of nasty insults and sometimes worse. Like the Glaswegian Labour MP who was beckoned over by a car driver the other day who wound down his window to tell the MP to fuck off back to England. Or the widow of a senior Scottish Tory who was spat on because of her late husband’s politics. Or the lady in Galashiels who was asked what right she had to a vote when she had an English accent.

    Salmond is not adequately held to account for what his supporters sometimes do. Last weekend, about a thousand nationalist protesters waving saltires held a rally outside BBC headquarters in Glasgow to protest against corporation coverage. An expensively made banner, very professional, called for the sacking of BBC political editor Nick Robinson. Alistair Darling said it was the sort of scene you might expect in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. The journalists’ union was properly outraged. But Salmond said the event was “peaceful and joyous”. Imagine the hue and cry that would have followed if Labour or Tory supporters had done such a thing.

    Today the Daily Telegraph reported that Salmond’s office had been trying to force the principal of St Andrews university to tone down some critical remarks she had made about the consequences of independence on higher education finances. Louise Richardson had commented in March 2013 that it would be “catastrophic” if the university was cut off from the funding it gets from UK national research councils. So Salmond’s office pressured her to issue a “clarification” which they had drafted, saying that “Scottish government has risen to the challenge on fees, in stark contrast to the government south of the border”. Salmond, who in the end controls about half of the university’s funding, made a heated phone call to back this up. Richardson rightly refused.

    But that’s what nationalism does. It redefines neighbours into otherness in defiance of their shared experience and material interest. The Cumbernauld MP Gregg McClymont has a good line about there being no such thing as a successfully divided island. Think Cyprus, he says. Or Ireland, Sri Lanka or Timor. Why can a newly divided Britain be so certain that it will be different? The answer is it cannot.

    This week a repentant Ewan Morrison wrote about how he had joined the yes campaign only to find that it was a joyless place, run by a clique and in which questioning was frowned upon and discipline constantly demanded. “Many people are voting yes just to express their frustration at not being able to engage with politics as it is,” Morrison wrote. “They’re voting yes because they want their voice to be heard for the first time. That’s understandable and admirable, but yes is not a debate or a democratic dream, it’s an empty word and an empty political process.”

    The idea that what has been happening in Scotland is a lively and mutually respectful dialogue is not the whole truth. Historical materialism and nationalism don’t mix. Nationalism offers a reset option from materialist reality. It gives people a blank canvas on which they can paint their fantasy of choice. For some Scottish yes voters, that means a socialist Scotland. For others it means a low-tax tiger economy. For some it means a Scotland powered by renewables. For others it means an oil economy, where energy companies get what they want. An independent Scotland cannot be all these things at the same time.

    Whatever the result, these are going to be difficult hours and days for a Scotland that Salmond’s nationalism has forced into a division against itself. Magnanimity will be at a premium.

    The wounds are not irreparable. But they could last longer than many who take a more benign view of these massive events wish to believe.
     
  15. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  16. Queen of the Bay

    Queen of the Bay User

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    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/G58uCzZXfAE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Taiwan's understanding of the situation.
     
  17. Crash

    Crash Thank You

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    Best speech of the referendum....SO good
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/J39bBV7CBJk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  18. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    I have enjoyed the passionate Gordon Brown renaissance. Hopefully it may turn things around for him a little in the eyes of public and his general legacy after the general disaster of his premiership, bigot-gate and never winning an election.
     
  19. PercyPig

    PercyPig The Last of Us

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  20. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Another Buzzfeed story I thought was wonderful was about conspiracy theories.

    Nick Robinson is the new M.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/scotland-poll#ljxk5v
     
  21. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Me too. Poor Gordon really was handed the poisoned chalice in 2007 - coming in after Tony Blair had disgraced himself in the eyes of the GBP, standing at the helm during 2008-09 (possibly the worst two years for a British Prime Minister in recent history), and then being unceremoniously booted out after Bigot-Gate!

    If No wins, I hope he will go down in history as the man who saved the Union.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  22. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Does they think they are living in Russia?

    Actually, they soon will be! Chest-beating nationalism, here we come.

    Watch your back, Kala! There may be a gay propaganda law heading your way soon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  23. PercyPig

    PercyPig The Last of Us

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    These queens have got Kala's back
     
  24. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Alex Salmond may not win independence for his country, but he's managed to make Gordon Brown more relatable to Tory voters and David Cameron less hateable to non Tory voters.

    That's quite an achievement.
     
  25. Loufoque

    Loufoque BATTLE FOR YOUR LIFE

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    Anyway none of this would have happened if Geri Halliwell was still the UK's leading female pop star.

    Cheryl Cole has a lot to answer for.
     
  26. Slave

    Slave User

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    I've only really followed this at a basic level because politics really isn't my thing, much as I try and watch Question Time as often as I can.

    I do feel quite sad on the eve of the vote though - it's like a cunty boyfriend is trying to decide whether to break up with you. If he decides to dump you, you'll be sad and probably want him to crash and burn in spectacular style (because there are clearly people who think that a "Yes" vote is a temporary thing and they can come back if it all goes wrong), if he decides not to, you'll be a bit relieved because the prospect of dating again after so long is off-putting, but you'll know he doesn't really love you.

    Basically in conclusion, I hate Scotland for putting us in this position and whichever way the vote goes, things aren't really going to be the same again. At least, not in the immediate future.
     
  27. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    It's gonna happen. I'm calling it NOW*


    *maybe
     
  28. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    I'm gonna DISOWN my Scottish roots if they vote yes. I DON'T KNOW HER. Changing my surname to SMITH
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  29. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    YOU have SCOTTISH ROOTS?
     
  30. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    I am a MAC and I was BORN THERE
     
  31. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    I don't see why the cross of St Patrick should remain so thin and asymetric.
     
  32. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    But if you bastards vote yes I was born in CHARING CROSS HOSPITAL
     
  33. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    If ONLY I had KNOWN I could have invited you to the last Moopmeet. I am sure YOU would have eaten my Marks and Spencer nibbles!
     
  34. monsta

    monsta CAUGHT YOUR FEVER

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    Meanwhile across town I'm chopped liver.
     
  35. Kate

    Kate she's for the streets BITCH

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    I'll still be coming up when that bloody panda manages to keep a baby.
     
  36. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    You'd rather lick out Lulu than come to a Eurovision party love.
     
  37. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    It's not a Moopmeet unless everyone is invited.
     
  38. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    It's my least favourite aspect of the Union flag. I don't know why they didn't keep it as standard to begin with.
     
  39. Diddy

    Diddy Rice Queen

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    How else would you be able to criticise someone for flying it upside down? I though you of all people would relish THAT
     
  40. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    Of course, Ireland's first comment makes it.
    [​IMG]

    I have time for Gordon but I really don't think he will. He comes out and offers a good speech once in a while but many more people putting far more effort into winning a no vote, for sure. And the idea that everyone in Scotland loves him is a total myth, although he probably does receive a warmer reception here than down south. Apart from Margo McDonald, I think I am most saddened by the fact that Donald Dewar has not been around to witness this vote. As such a major architect of the push for devolution, he undoubtedly would have been a very astute and welcome presence in the debate. More of a real match for Salmond, definitely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014

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