Scottish Independence Debate

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by SDF, Feb 23, 2013.

?

Independence?

Poll closed Sep 18, 2014.
  1. I am Scottish - YES

    4.3%
  2. I am Scottish - NO

    12.9%
  3. I am Scottish - DON'T KNOW

    1.4%
  4. I am British (not Scottish) - YES

    7.1%
  5. I am British (not Scottish) - NO

    44.3%
  6. I am British (not Scottish) - DON'T KNOW

    8.6%
  7. I am not British - YES

    2.9%
  8. I am not British - NO

    5.7%
  9. I am not British - DON'T KNOW

    12.9%
  1. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    That's a bit better, but there's definitely all to play for within the next year. I still haven't heard a decent argument from the YES side as to why Scotland should be independent. They haven't even got some of the basics right, half of the stuff they don't even have an answer to.
     
  2. win_the_game

    win_the_game User

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    Indeed. "Everything will be alright because we've said it'll be alright" is not a convincing argument.
     
  3. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    The vote for a Welsh Assembly was 50.3/49.7 back in the 90s. Until the final county came in it really did look like the vote was lost. The tv coverage that night was very dull, but livened up when Cerys Matthews was asked for her opinion on the vote. She replied "I don't care about that, I want to know who's fucking Sian Lloyd tonight".

    EVERY VOTE COUNTS.
     
  4. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    What would make you vote yes?

    I have yet to hear an argument from Better Together that gives me a positive reason to vote no...
     
  5. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    Yet more of the same is exactly what we need.
     
  6. jivafox

    jivafox chalamet & chill

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    I just hope it doesn't give WALES any IDEAS.
     
  7. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Carwyn Jones is already talking about tax raising and borrowing powers. I'm slighly concerned.
     
  8. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    I don't think anything would if I was totally honest. I've always felt strongly British.

    Wen the SNP don't have proper answers, or seem to know what they are talking about with things like currency and EU membership it really fills me with dread. Plus I dislike the leaders of the SNP party. And while I know that shouldn't be a definitive reason for my voting reason, it is a part of it.
     
  9. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    The fact your taxes would almost certainly have to soar for you to receive the same level of public service you get now.
     
  10. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    Is this true?. A lot of the more successful smaller European countries have much higher taxes than in Scotland - Norway, Netherlands...
     
  11. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    You say you want answers but you e already made up your mind. It's fair to say anyway that this referendum will be won or lost on the undecided. It does however have nothing to do with symbolic nationalism and everything to do with democracy.

    On currency, for example, the SNPs policy is based on on the advice of world renowned economists. Any uncertainty that the no campaign shout about on this issue is ironic when you certainly won't hear George Osborne outright reject a sterling union. As for the EU, well if England had its way we probably won't even be part of that for very much longer!

    The campaign really needs to be turned on its head. What does a no vote mean to Scotland?

    Voting yes is not a vote for the SNP, its not about what party you trust or are naturally aligned to - it is about creating a fairer, more democratic society and I certainly believe that leaves only one option on the ballot paper.
     
  12. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    The Barnett formula means that Scottish residents (+ Welsh and Northern Irish ones) get a far higher level of public spending per head than English residents do. It's why Scotland can afford free eye tests, prescriptions, tuition etc. and England can't.
     
  13. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    Fairer in what sense?
     
  14. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    The SNP policy on currency is based on - we want to keep the British Pound. So how is that going to work if they are independent?

    For EU, they want to keep the same rights the UK has with the Opt-outs on the Euro and Schengen Agreement. What gives Scotland the right to be treated ANY differently to Croatia or Malta for example?
     
  15. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    Ah, I've never heard of this, but it does sort of make sense. It's another reason why I am happy with the status quo - we get a lot of benefits from being part of the union, and I think if most of the population thought that these benefits could be lost, and have higher taxes, they may vote differently.
     
  16. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    The affordability argument is meant to be a positive argument for no? :D

    Scotland's public spending makes up a lower percentage of its GDP than the UK as a whole.

    The average tax receipt per person has been higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole over the last 30 years.

    Scotland does have a deficit (like most countries) but it is smaller as a percentage of GDP as a whole.

    We more than pay our way.

    If we were such a burden to the UK why do they want to keep us?
     
  17. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    George Osborne (and indeed any Chancellor) would probably be well advised to reject a sterling union if Scotland pursued independence. If there's anything to learn from the failures of the euro it's that currency union without fiscal union is (and always has been) an utterly dreadful idea.
     
  18. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    I'm not disputing the spending levels, but the justification behind how it spent is more to do with ideology than free everything. Anyone living in Wales can get paracetamol prescribed free on the NHS, even if you're on a 200k salary. But even if you're unemployed and homeless, you won't get the same cancer drugs people in England get routinely free.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  19. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    The SNP has a currency policy now?
     
  20. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    It making up a lower percentage of your GDP as a whole and the average tax receipt being higher on average per person doesn't mean your taxes won't have to increase for you to get the same level of public provision you do now - quoting other slightly positive statistics about your tax contributions doesn't change the essential fact that public spending per person outweighs the tax intake for Scotland, and that the deficit would soar massively on independence if tax intake didn't go up sharply. Just look at the Swinney memo for the SNP's own plans if independence goes ahead to see that even the Nats know they'd have to cut public spending or ram up taxes hugely.

    And yeah, I'd say 'your taxes stay low and you get pretty great public services for relatively low tax' is a pretty positive argument for not voting for independence. Having to pay more for the same level of provision (without even getting started on how much more than that you'd have to pay for the socialist utopia some Yes supporters seem to believe an independent Scotland could become overnight) for the sake of getting control over the relatively few areas Scotland doesn't have autonomy on already strikes me as a pretty poor bargain.

    And as for the final question - it's called a sense of nationhood. I believe the British sense of nationhood outweighs considerations of how much more we spend on Scotland - which is overall a far more important argument for keeping the union, even though I think the financial one stands up pretty strongly too.
     
  21. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    Keep the pound. They didn't ask for permission first though.
     
  22. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    Scotland is too small to be an economic burden on rUK.

    We want Scotland to be a part of the UK because we like having Scottish citizens, just as we like having Mancunian citizens, Welsh citizens, white citizens, black citizens, gay citizens etc. It works well just as it is and we like it.
     
  23. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    Sorry, I was being facetious. It doesn't feel like a proper well-thought out policy.
     
  24. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    I'm glad I'm not Scottish. I'd be furious at the lack of detailed position papers and legal analyses of key constitutional and economic issues.
     
  25. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    The biggest policy headline I saw this week was about the Olympics. Any politician trying to tempt voters with the prospect of a Scottish Olympic team for 2016 should be pelted with fruit. What a stupid reason to break up a country.
     
  26. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    Independence provides the economic leavers to grow or economy and grow our tax base.

    On day one of independence tax rates would be the same as they are just now and public spending would remain the same - it's up to governments after that to change these rates based on a democratic mandate. Exactly like it would be in if we remain part of the union.

    A normal country spends more than it takes in tax. The whole of the UK is in deficit. Our deficit is smaller. Surely the fact we have this deficit is down to Westminster. It's not an argument to remain part of the UK it's an argument to leave. Westminster didn't regulate the banks. Westminster spent too much and saved nothing.

    The argument on the pound is ridiculous at this stage. The pound is as much Scotland's as it is England's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  27. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    The record of the Scottish parliament highlights what our fairer society could look like. Protecting our NHS, free prescriptions, tuition fees all delivered on a balanced budget.
     
  28. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    The argument about the pound is NOT ridiculous. At the moment it's a BRITISH POUND. Once Scotland leave the union, they have no right or say in what affects the British economy. So for example, if things went tits up in England, then Scotland would be affected, without having any say in it t all. They basically want a British version of the Euro.
     
  29. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    And what does the record of the Finance Minister's own leaked plans suggest?
     
  30. win_the_game

    win_the_game User

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    I wouldn't be so sure with regards to the NHS. The NHS in Scotland faces a potentially massive crisis over the next few years thanks to the health policies of successive Scottish Governments.

    The SNP's commitment to free prescriptions has come at a huge price to territorial and special Health Boards. Their budgets aren't balanced - many of the territorial boards are overspending as a result of the policy. It is one of the reasons why all Boards have been forced to reduce staff in the form of a Government imposed efficiency drive to try and balance the books. Cuts to the workforce are coming at a time when we have an increasingly aging population and ever greater demands being made on front line services.

    Bare in mind that this comes on top of numerous boards receiving operational funding cuts to negate the costs of populist polices over the last few years, their record on the NHS isn't all that.

    I can't see any way that the situation will improve in an independent Scotland. The NHS will at some point have to deliver even greater cuts and savings. In terms of patient care, there will be nothing fair about that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  31. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    Tuition fees won't be free for all - just for Scottish people. The EU's newest member will seek to violate treaty rights to discriminate against British citizens.
     
  32. Tetris-Rock

    Tetris-Rock one of those "they/thems"

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    The story that I heard on the radio yesterday was an apparent assurance that Scotland would be able to compete in the Olympics, as opposed to "vote independence and Scots will get to compete in the Olympics." Hinging your decision on that is a fucking stupid reason to vote yes and to vote no.

    Why don't we vote Labour in the first elections of an independent Scottish Parliament? The only reason I say this is there is a complete lack of acknowledgment from people in all the other parties to acknowledge that they could easily end up running an independent Scotland. This is particularly applicable to Labour as the SNP's main opposition. Individual Yes Scotland members might talk of a socialist utopia (which is complete bollocks of course, although I think that the comprehensive joined-up policy making that independence could offer potentially offers significant good) but ultimately the policy direction in the first years of an independent Scottish state will depend on the manifesto of whoever is elected, and that could easily be Labour.

    Although potentially more manageable, in that only two recognised nations would be using it as opposed to seventeen? If everyone was going to be grown up about it, collaborative working would make a great deal of sense. In the short term also, Scotland would remain as one of England/Wales/NI's (lest we forget that the union ISN'T just with England) biggest trading partners and the shared currency would assure for smoother trade links.

    I think it's the Yes policy that eventually Scotland would develop it's own currency but that is not in the immediate plans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  33. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    I didn't say it was a ridiculous argument but it absolutely is at this stage as the UK chancellor refuses to confirm what his position would be if Scotland gains independence. If they are so against entering in to a sterling union (like you insist) then he should confirm the position instead of just saying it brings 'uncertainty'. He should call out the yes campaign and force them to come up with another solution but he knows that Scotland leaving the sterling zone would be adverse for the pound.
     
  34. Madison

    Madison Everything goes up by six

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    The Chancellor has a job to do.
     
  35. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    My God this 7 million page report sounds like independence offer brings FUCK ALL to the table. Sounds like a terrible idea.
     
  36. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Now that the white paper has been published, having read select highlights I really want Scotland to vote yes now, just so the rest of the UK can sit back and enjoy.
     
  37. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Well there is that. I do love Scotland, but there would something pervesley satisfying with some kind of cunt like Cameron stitching Salmond up in some twisted deal that dumps something like the pensions crisis on Scotland.
     
  38. COB

    COB jumped up little prick

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    I still don't know what to do :(
     
  39. straightorbroken

    straightorbroken rebel heart

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    Move to Sweden.
     
  40. Sharla

    Sharla The Resistance

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    Has Alex Salmond had a gastric band put in? His neck is bulging out of his shirt collar approx 29% less than usual.

    Update: The internet tells me he's lost 2 stone following a diet recommended by both Mervyn King and Beyonce.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013

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