The UK: The Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson Years :(

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by Ag, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    You still haven't answered my question. What would he, or any other potential labour leader do to not alienate the large amount of labour voters who voted leave? How can they support a remain vote without giving the torys something to rip them apart with?

    You can say he's unelectable all day, point to the polls, shout STOP BREXIT as much as you want, (and you'll find many a tweet from me towards corbyn/labour doing just that) but I'm still yet to hear a solution.
     
  2. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    They've already alienated a massive amount of Labour voters by NOT supporting a remain vote. You only have to look at the dismal results at the European Elections and the way they've haemorrhaged votes to the Lib Dems at recent by-elections to see the writing is well and truly on the wall.

    Ultimately, any road ahead involves alienating a large swathe of Labour voters. The current approach clearly ain't working. I honestly don't think there's any solution that ends with him in power. He's made his own position clear, and it's out of step with the country. Ergo, it's time for somebody else to take the reigns.

    Is there any easy answer for Labour to turn things around? No - in any event they have a massive mountain to climb. But the Corbyn status quo is objectively not working, so him stepping down would at least be an opportunity to hit the reset button.

    At the very least, somebody less divisive/useless might be able to quiet the constant stream of accusations/resignations coming from within his own party. You can blame that on centrist cronyism all you like, and I'm sure it's not an insignificant factor, but ultimately the Labour party is proving to be totally dysfunctional under Corbyn, and I don't believe that getting rid of a leader who isn't working automatically means handing the party back over the whatever remains of the Blairite wing.

    Like I said, some kind of compromise deal with a more moderate leader backed with a few significant Corbyn-sympathetic cabinet figures could be a way to get back onto something resembling fighting form.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  3. ameraal

    ameraal la loi de murphy

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    i keep on popping into to this thread for the new adventures of that jolly fun if a little disheveled looking man and all i get is skinny sad grandad talk):
     
  4. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    Still haven't answered my question, but

    Pretty much proves my point.
     
  5. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    If ‘your point’ is that he’s faced a near impossible situation, then I’m not disagreeing.

    My point is that he’s 4 years in and still trailing miserably in the polls, ergo whatever decisions he’s made, however well intentioned or otherwise, are not leading him to what should at this point be his only goal as leader of the opposition, which is to get his party into government.

    I’m still waiting for you to answer why he shouldn’t quit, or whether you actually think he has a good chance of being the next British Prime Minister.
     
  6. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    All of these dark mutterings of my name are quite entertaining.

    For what it's worth, I agree with Ron (except on the issue of Labour attacking the Lib Dems, Swinson throwing her weight around as if her party doesn't have about 10 MPs and her voting record both deserved criticism). A lot of what I want to say has already been said but I'll add these few tedious, rambling points.

    This whole debate is predicated on an outlying poll, on the back of a new, Brexit Party-friendly Tory leader. I'm surprised that after I got called out for using a single poll to make even a minor supporting point the other day, nobody's mentioned this. When October 31st arrives, Boris's attempts to please both halves of the party and the membership will inevitably backfire.

    I do think that VoR has some cheek to call the Corbyn "fanbase" a cult. We're not the ones ranting in capital letters, and my allegiance isn't personal - it's because Corbyn is one of a small amount of MPs in Labour who recognise the need for a serious anti-capitalist, anti-war movement in this country.

    I'm sure a lot of the people who didn't vote before 2015 feel similarly. I don't want to vote for the Lib Dems in red rosettes. There is quite rightly a big difference between the two parties, especially under the leadership of Orange Book liberals like Cable and Swinson, and more people need to understand this.

    I accept that Corbyn has been less vocal than a hardline Remain supporter might hope, but Ron correctly pointed out that beyond words, there is very little that Labour can do to stop Brexit from happening. There has never been a parliamentary majority for a second referendum. It's bizarre to read so many articles, posts and public statements that ignore this simple fact.

    One of the reasons that the Remain Alliance parties are picking up these votes is because they have the luxury to become single-issue parties.

    They're either regional parties or have a small handful of MPs, there is no need for them to be pragmatic or act as a broad church (it's funny how demands for a wider range of opinions within Labour disappear when Brexit is involved). Like Ron said above, there is a fundamental difference in the coalition of voters, and a fundamental difference in their acceptance of the economic status quo.

    In a general election, I do think many of these new tactical voters will coalesce around whoever stops the Tories or Brexit Party from winning their seat, and in many cases that will be Labour. They're not all #FBPE histrionics. The doom-saying in the last couple of pages ranges from the pessimistic to the ridiculous.
     
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  7. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    ...and at that point Labour under Corbyn will be leading the polls? Just wanting to clarify so we can revisit this in a few weeks time. I will be overjoyed to eat shit if I'm wrong.

    If after four years of LEADING THE LABOUR PARTY*, Corbyn is still a philosophical outlier within that party, does that not suggest that perhaps he's not best suited to that particular job? And that maybe you as a voter should be looking at sending your own vote to a party that more broadly lines up with your personal politics?

    I don't mean that in the sense that Corbynistas should be purged from the party - though to the 'which side are cultists' comment I'd certainly point to the treatment of Labour members who have caught the ire of momentum for not showing due deference to the glorious leader. Is that entirely his fault? No. But to deny he's a personality cult seems naive at best. But the Labour party is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, and Corbyn as leader isn't shifting them. I'll repeat, my ideal would be to have a unifying moderate in command, with the Momentum-endorsed wing given a major seat at the table to keep the party from shifting too far back to the right.

    *sorry to RANT IN CAPS, just wanting to place an important emphasis

    I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here but I can only repeat. The current approach isn't working. A new approach is desperately required and we're running out of time. I literally do not give a shit about the why's and wherefores, I want to see a remain party leading the polls. I have voted Labour all my life, so I would be very happy if it was them. If you think Corbyn's job at this point is to cling on until whatever version of Brexit happens and then mumble "Well, I could've done that better, can we have yet another General Election please?" from the sidelines, then we're just going to have to agree that we're coming at this from very different perspectives.

    In terms of 'a wider range of opinions', yes there are still a number of Pro-Brexit Labour MPs and voters out there, arguably including the miserable old cunt himself. The struggle to unify them with the Remain voters on the single most polarising political farce of our generation at this point falls squarely under 'Things Corbyn fairly had against him which at this point I do not give a shit about because the end result remains the same'. Please, please don't make me repeat it again. I'm really quite tired.

    And many of those voters will not vote for the party under Corbyn under any circumstances because of the various ways in which he has become toxic, or will not trust Labour to prevent Brexit and will therefore be compelled to vote for the next-best centre-left option, causing much the same vote split that's going to damage the Tories and the Brexit Party on the other side and leaving the risk of a right-wing coalition leading us through the next four years unacceptably high. IMO.
     
  8. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    Considering how divisive Brexit is, the only logical/tactical thing for Labour to do (now that the Tories are 100% pro Brexit) is to come out against Brexit and try to stop it from happening. That will make them lose many, but they’d also get to win over the centre votes.

    With Boris now talking about exapnsionary fiscal policy there is a risk that he will win over Remain voters as well.
     
  9. Indie

    Indie Great Tits IN THE SNOW

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    Been meaning to. Been busy :)
     
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  10. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    I'm not the gambling or gloating type, but if it keeps you going then whatever.

    For all of the talk of Stalinist purges and brutal Momentum attacks, I've seen the same aggression on the other side.

    Here's a tweet from last week with 5k+ likes featuring Corbynism being unfavourably compared to the National Front and the EDL. Neither are good things and being stupid on Twitter hurts both sides. That said, I try to avoid caricaturing my political opponents as slavish devotees of their leaders because it makes me sound like a twat. Everyone likes to stick up for who they support.

    There is no such thing as a "unifying moderate". My biggest bugbear in modern politics is the conception of centrism as a Goldilocks-style equal mix of left and right. The right-wing economics of centrism far out-weigh the liberal social mores - as the meme says, the problems are bad, but the causes are very good.

    Labour should be a socialist party, not a moderate party, and if the blatant wrecking carried out by the moderate wing in the past four years continues then your token left-winger isn't going to last too long. Owen Smith - soft left, not even a moderate - famously wanted to proscribe Momentum from the party.

    If you're not going to expand on what this new approach should be, then you can bang your head for as long as you like. If I were Labour leader, I would also simply win a general election, no shit.

    What you've decided I think is again, an unfair caricature, but the facts of the situation are that Labour have had no involvement in the negotiations and don't have the numbers to ensure a second referendum. It's not making excuses, it's not pro-Corbyn spin, it's reality and it should inform the next step to take.

    There are very few levers left to pull now, beyond another vote of no confidence which I imagine will take place after the recess. If that fails, or if Labour lose the resulting election, then yes, perhaps a new leader will be necessary.

    And if you don't give a shit about that then why bother replying? It's just intellectual masturbation. Stop being so dismissive and calm down.

    Ultimately, the hysteria about Corbyn in this thread, or on Twitter, doesn't reflect the real world. Most people don't obsess over this stuff like we do.

    There are undoubtedly some voters who will never countenance voting for him, just as there are voters who wouldn't vote for a leader from the Labour right. If the party go into an election supporting Remain more clearly, and I assume they will based on the front bench's recent comments, then I think the number of people who place their own personal vengeance over a vote for a pro-EU party would be smaller than you say.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  11. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    I’m honestly not gloating, I just truly don’t understand what you think is going to happen over the next 3-6 months...


    I’m not talking about Twitter warriors, which I agree operate across the spectrum and are mostly just noise. I’m talking about members being deselected for increasingly spurious reasons while the antisemitism problem is largely untouched. Regardless of how much of it’s a right-wing fabrication, it’s not a good look.

    Again, you’re talking a lot about what you think the Labour party should be, but fundamentally I just don’t think that reflects what it is, or has been for decades. I was as excited as anyone when Corbyn was voted in (seeiously, check the threads) but 4 years on, other than creating a toxically divisive schism between the moderates and Momentum, he just hasn’t proved capable of enacting the changes he promised in a unifying way. Ergo - he’s in the wrong job. Maybe even the wrong party.
     
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  12. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    You're still banging on about how bad a job Corbyn has supposedly done but what else is he supposed to do? They've said they'll oppose a no-deal brexit and they've promised another referendum after having a go at negotiations. Frustrating as that might be to a remain voter you are still completely ignoring the fact that a) the country voted to leave and b) millions of Labour voters would be pushed to the tories or Brexit party if Labour shifted its stance.

    Meanwhile we've got Boris ripping the Conservatives in two, Farage driving a wedge further into that split, and the obsession with pursuing a no-deal Brexit actually making the likely hood of the UK leaving the EU on the 31st October less and less likely. Sitting back and letting the Conservatives fuck this up is a very shrewd move in my opinion even if my gut instinct is to crave every party left and centre to rebuke Brexit altogether. Indeed the deeper I look and the further away from the sensationalist press bullshit the better I feel about the whole situation. Continuing to let the Tories self implode under the pressure of the Brexit party is the very best thing that can happen.

    Don't forget Corbyn was polling terribly before the last GE and look how that turned out.
     
  13. Sheena

    Sheena MAKE IT QUICK, LUCILLE!

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    What, not very well but slightly better than everyone expected and something which he's ENTIRELY failed to build on, you mean? :D
     
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  14. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    I'm saying the polls aren't really that good an indicator of actual performance at the ballots. We weren't leaving the EU either.
     
  15. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    But per Mugatu, Labour can’t do anything but sit back RE Brexit anyway. So would it not be better to do that under a leader who’s not also dividing his own party and bombing in the polls? His Brexit position frustrates me but he’s failing in many more ways than that. He’s an ineffectual opposition leader, he’s weak in the House of Commons, half of his own party despise him and in four years he’s singularly failed to turn that around - if anything he seems to have alienated a lot of them even more.

    I also don’t understand why anyone who placed a high enough priority on Brexit would vote Labour because they’ve not *technically* ruled it out, but I absolutely understand why a Remainer would find it hard to justify voting for them when they refuse to actually be a party of Remain.
     
  16. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    I said it in my post. There is no way that the Boris bounce will last and the Tory vote will split again. Yes, Labour will probably end up in a coalition agreement of some sort, but I expect coalition governments to be the future of British politics for a long while, at least while the Union still exists.

    Who do you feel has been deselected spuriously?

    The selection process has needed reform for a long time. Even if you have the luxury of being selected for a safe Labour seat, you shouldn't expect a job for life, your job is to represent the views of your constituents. An open primary system seems like a good idea to me. Something like AOC unseating Crowley would be much harder to do here under the current system. And perhaps that way people in Vauxhall could have got rid of Kate Hoey a lot earlier. It goes both ways.

    I never referred to anti-Semitism as a right-wing fabrication at any point, that's completely wrong. I do disagree with the recent proposals for automatic expulsions without investigation, everyone deserves due process, but that's about it.

    I agree there's a disconnect between the MPs and the membership, but the power should be with the members, the largest socialist movement in Europe. If people want a moderate leader, then they are entitled to join and vote for one in a leadership contest. It hasn't worked out that way and Corbyn's won two landslides.

    To me, that's a good reflection of where people want the policies to be. All of the energy in the party, a time-limited issue like Brexit aside, is with the left.

    I accept Corbyn has some personal faults, he's stubborn, has a few uncomfortable personal connections and isn't much of a firebrand, but you can predict that the schism will continue under any left-wing leader. Corbyn didn't create that - it was also there under Ed Miliband (1, 2). The right wing of the party is incompatible with most of the membership and even a more moderate leftist direction.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  17. Suedey

    Suedey [Women yelling in background]

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    Anybody else started stocking up on food & medicine? I have.
     
  18. octophone

    octophone The Electrocutioner

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    I've already got 2 months HRT backed up but I haven't managed to do the same for my anti-depressant.
     
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  19. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    I'm stocking up on balaclavas and CS gas.
     
  20. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    'll be on a fucking ferry before the leaves turn brown if I think there is any real chance of a No Deal actually getting through.
     
  21. Shirley

    Shirley BIG-HEARTED BUNNY

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    My MOTHER is apparently planning on TAKING TO THE STREETS.
     
  22. Jark

    Jark no gem too sultry

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    Corbyn is not willing to save this country from the disaster of Brexit. Because he actually wants Brexit. On this issue he is a Tory in Labour clothing and he needs to go immediately to (i) save us from the disaster of no-deal and (ii) save his own party from going down by standing by and happily allowing the Tories to ruin us, something Labour will never be forgiven for. It will ruin them. He will ruin them. He has to go.
     
  23. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    I'm not getting into this shit again but he did an interview yesterday saying he would do everything in his power to stop this No-Deal brexit as soon as he possibly could, ie when parliament reforms after summer. Short of calling in some favours from the IRA and Hamas what the fuck do you want?!
     
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  24. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    I'm well up for a bit of light looting with mama shirl.
     
  25. Jark

    Jark no gem too sultry

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    Maybe what I want is for him to have taken a stance on this at literally any point in the last three years?

    For him not to have gone on TV in 2016 and claim he was "7/10" bothered about Europe at the exact moment the whole country was preparing to vote for our future?

    For him to actively begin campaigning for a second referendum, like, now?

    You know, just to do something to signal that he understands the sheer urgency of this situation. That it's probably already too late but at least he's willing to try, because that's what almost the entirety of the Labour voter base wants, and several million voices actually count more than those two cunts advising him/pulling his strings/keeping him locked away from all reason or accountability.

    We are 87 days away from leaving Europe and plunging our country into fresh catastrophe so I think the bare minimum Corbyn could do is communicate a crystal-clear position on a hard backing for a second referendum.

    That's what the fuck I want. That's what you should want. Stop apologising for him and start spending that energy demanding better leadership from arguably the only person in politics remotely capable of preventing this whole shitshow from going down and taking us all with it.
     
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  26. Jark

    Jark no gem too sultry

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    It's all so painfully obvious I can't believe we even have to have this discussion. No wonder the left is in tatters
     
  27. Shirley

    Shirley BIG-HEARTED BUNNY

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    I'll tell her that. You can push the wheelchair.
     
  28. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    There are less than three months until October 31st, a final deadline which the government (and the EU) seem to be sticking to quite rigidly.

    In that time, taking the media spotlight off the Tories’ current disarray for another bitterly-fought leadership contest strikes me as a poor choice. You would need to give each candidate enough time to campaign, all before the party conference in September, for a vote that Corbyn would most likely win again. It’s a waste of very limited time.

    To their credit, even some of the moderate MPs have realised this – the no-confidence motion among the Labour Lords was shelved for that reason.

    All of the plans to kick and scream our way out, like the ludicrous Government of National Unity (minus anyone who supports Brexit, or most of the Shadow Cabinet) I read about yesterday, are just comforting fantasies. The vote of no-confidence in the government is the only realistic option left.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  29. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    If Labour fail to win the next General Election, do you think Corbyn should resign?
     
  30. Eddie

    Eddie User

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    That's isn't strictly true though is it?

    To be honest, as Christian has already said, I'd rather he nailed his colours to the mast on the issue of Brexit and officially came out as a pro-Brexit leader with an anti no-Deal stance. Or has he already done that?

    Either way, I'm not convinced by Labour supporters continuing to moan about him on this matter. Brexit is the single most important issue facing this country at the moment and it is naive to think that an exit from Europe will not have a knock-on effect on those policies that traditional Labour voters hold dear. So if it matters to you that much then you simply MUST switch allegiances to a pro-REMAIN party. As I plan on doing.
     
  31. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    I think he’ll win it and become PM, but if Corbyn loses the next general election then yes, I think there’s a credible case for changing the leader.

    I’d hope that the policies would remain the same and I’d support whoever the left-wing candidate is to replace him, hopefully John McDonnell. I’m not convinced that the issue is with Corbynism.
     
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  32. big ron

    big ron Nude inspector

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    You need to read the last 3 pages of this thread cocker, we've already covered this.
     
  33. Kalabaliken

    Kalabaliken Pop Precision Since 1978

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    :basil:
     
  34. octophone

    octophone The Electrocutioner

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    Why? Being an abject failure at every job he's ever had didn't stop his immediate counterpart...
     
  35. octophone

    octophone The Electrocutioner

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    (nb - satire)
     
  36. Suedey

    Suedey [Women yelling in background]

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    He should have resigned at least a year ago...
     
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  37. Ag

    Ag BRING BACK TAGS

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    Corbyn should absolutely quit if he loses a second election. If he stays on that sends a terrible precedent and message.

    Obviously I would prefer if he did become PM for a couple of years and then passed on the mantle.
     
  38. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    Oh fucking HARK ON when we were having these conversations four years ago and none of you lot GAVE A SHIT ABOUT THIS!
     
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  39. Penelope

    Penelope SMIRKING LESBIAN MOON

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    You do realise he was eminently public about all of this in the leadership election you enthusiastically supported him during? :rolleyes:
     
  40. Jark

    Jark no gem too sultry

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    What point do you think you're making?
     

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