The USA: The Trump Years

Discussion in 'Current Affairs & Debate' started by cwej, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    trump is just a (disgusting) guy. he's a mirror. he is not the problem, he is a symptom of a problem in american society which seems to be pretty universal in western countries even if it manifests itself in slightly different ways.

    and the problem will only get worse, in my fucking shit opinion, if people like clinton (or buttigieg) lead. so yes, as long as doesn't start another world war, i'm glad he won and lit a fire under progressive arses.
     
  2. Ag

    Ag User

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    am cancelled.
     
  3. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    That is true, what’s happening is somehow inevitable, but it doesn’t automatically mean it’s a victory for the progressives and that the problems will be swept away once they win.
     
  4. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    I know it’s a very dramatic and unfair comparison but the solution to Nazism was not communism.

    I’m not saying the uber light American ”socialism” is bad but to the many in the US it’s scary.

    It’s a fucked up country, I don’t think they’ll ever be able to have a functioning wellfare state.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  5. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    she is pressed because people still heckle her with the words "bernie would've won". he rallied for her despite of her (and the dnc's conduct during the primaries) and now her saying she hopes "he endorses the democratic nominee faster this time" like he isn't the frontrunner is just more of her pettiness and bitterness.

    it's always someone else's fault with this one. fucking entitled dynastic prick. i will never forgive myself for supporting her in 2016 but then i was utterly clueless back then (as i was with regards to sympathising with buttigieg earlier this year).
     
  6. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    yes, that is a very dramatic and unfair comparison.

    of course, even if he wins bernie can't magically fix anything. but even if he only gets universal healthcare going and starts making steps in addressing the wealth gap and the hijacking of democracy by corporations, i think he will make the usa that much better. and that will have a positive effect on the radicalisation of society.

    watching that clip of uk voters should be a wake up call for everyone. we are living in a time of information warfare. this level of manipulation and cultivated stupidity is probably the most understated threat to humanity.
     
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  7. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    One could only hope it would happen, but considering how polarised the society is and how American politics work, Bernie would have to win both the house and the senate and have the support of his party in a all these issues. Obama couldn’t get much done and even Trump has struggled to get things through even when they had a majority. I have a hard time believing the powerful corporations would let it happen.
     
  8. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    yes, completely. the corporations will wage full-on war on him and i doubt most of washington will be eager for him to win at all.
    i do think the tide is turning though. he is mobilizing a real movement and politicians will have to get on board sooner or later or be left behind.
     
  9. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Unfortunately, movements belong to the young (despite the irony of the current big ones in the UK and USA being led by men well into their seventies) and elections belong to the middle aged and old.

    I really do worry that the social revolution you're pinning your hopes on is just going to consign liberalism to the margins for the foreseeable.
     
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  10. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    I'm sure this isn't a perfect analogy, but look at the hippie / free love movement of the 1960s. One of the biggest youth movements in modern history, steeped in Liberal values.

    Who was elected President in 1969? Richard Nixon.
     
  11. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

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    So where do you think the disconnect is coming from? Are you saying young people are just fickle non-voters who are just all talk?
     
  12. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Well, the statistics show that the numbers are far lower than for older people. I don't know if that's as true in America but I presume it is.

    It's also a fallacy to assume *all* young people are fired up, peace-loving liberals. It's just that those that are tend to be very vocal and engaged. Hence the 'liberal bubble' effect where we all wind up SHOCKED on election day when the Tories win despite none of us having any Tory-voting friends.

    Part of me likes the Australian model of compulsory voting. Part of me fears it'd just make things even worse. (And a look at their fucked up political landscape more or less confirms this).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  13. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    Liberalism is already on the margins. If we were going to means-test our way out of this slow social collapse then it would have already happened.

    People talk about the left-populist movement failing because Corbyn isn't doing well in the polls, or because black Twitter isn't having any Bernie, all while overlooking four years of laughable high-profile liberal failure. Hillary, the Remain campaign, Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, what's going in in Europe etc. Do you ever wonder why everyone on the Democratic debate stage suddenly sounds a lot like Sanders and refuses to attack him on anything?

    I've come to understand recently that the biggest roadblock to this left-wing movement isn't the populist right (who aren't to be trusted but are at least starting to adopt some vaguely pro-worker rhetoric), it's the nominally centre-left people who have used our fear of the other side to spend decades helping them to tear up the social contract.

    They're trying to trick us again with Trump, a bad president, but far less damaging than Bush in the long-term. The only reason he won't be hanging out with Ellen DeGeneres in a few years is because he's a crass, repulsive person who's too explicit about his wealth.

    The centre will make any future progress dependent on some inimical, hamstringing compromise, like an anti-Tory coalition but only if Corbyn resigns, or Nancy Pelosi's balanced budget rule, or this bastardised Elizabeth Warren form of progressivism that crumbles before even getting to the negotiating table. They are just as culpable for framing policies that were considered part of a two-party consensus until the 1970s as polarising radicalism as those on the right.

    And I'm not bashing centrists, I'm telling the truth. I'm not an activist firebrand, I'm not out door-knocking, I'm a fairly normal person. They don't want anything that threatens the middle ground on economics and the left needs to build a way around them. Not just with the young, but with non-voters, workers, conservatives and so on. Bernie is very good at this. Corbyn maybe less so, unfortunately, but I hope I'm proved wrong on Thursday.

    And America used to have a functioning welfare state. It was properly-funded social security. Both the Democrats - Obama included - and the Republicans have been trying to cut it for decades.
     
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  14. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival Tu cabeza, mi cabeza

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    What fire under what progressive arses? Progressive politicians are just completely hopeless against the likes of Trump. The far right thrives under fear, pitting people against each other and making it perfectly normal to ostracise minorities. Once that climate has been installed, you no longer need facts or reason to convince people, which is exactly why progressive parties/the left have been doing miserably almost everywhere. Trump (and I'm mostly thinking Lepen here) has drawn such a big portion of the society almost irreversibly into this whirlpool of extremism that I really don't see how this is any good news.
     
  15. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    Welcome back Mugatu! In other news liberals will always hate socialists more than they hate fascists.
     
  16. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    So when Corbyn fails to get a majority on Thursday (sorry to use 'when' but let's be real) will the fault lie with him, or the system he's working within, in your opinion?

    And if it's the latter, how do you expect the Labour leader that follows - assuming it's somebody close to the Corbyn playbook - to do significantly better?
     
  17. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    If that was aimed at me, I absolutely don't hate socialists. I do hate a decade+ of Tory government being empowered by a weak and divided opposition, however.

    Like it or not, we need to work *with* centrists, not against them if there's ever going to be a left wing government in power in the near future. That doesn't mean throwing away all your values, but it does mean you have to compromise, and most importantly, be a bit more realistic.
     
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  18. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    Saying this while quoting someone who just more or less said that the far right are less evil than the centre.
     
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  19. VoR

    VoR #Justice4JLo

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    Look at it another way. Say the absolute best realistic outcome happens on Thursday, and there's a hung parliament. The only way Labour get into power is by getting into bed with the SNP and the Lib Dems. i.e. working with centrists.
     
  20. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival Tu cabeza, mi cabeza

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    Well quite frankly, dire times and all that.
     
  21. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    Mugatu is right though, ”people” hate liberalism because of its the dismantling of the wellfare state and for its globalist/open borders agenda. But right now there aren’t any main parties* in the west that offer the solution to both ”problems” at once. You either have the far right or the left of social democrats. The only way for Corbyn and the likes to win big is to be both left and be tough on immigration, crime etc.


    *Danish social democrats won on offering this red-brown formula.
     
  22. COB

    COB Pop it in here thanks

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    'More or less' doing a LOT of heavy lifting there! :tongueout: And no @VoR I wasn't aiming anything at you, it was a general statement about how I feel and I appreciate where you're coming from on this.

    EDIT: added smiley :cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  23. Ag

    Ag User

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    :zombie:
     
  24. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    i didn't mean politicians (there really aren't that many, are there?), but people with progressive convictions. book of stats, but it's definitely made me and the people around me more passionate about politics.

    and, yes, it's become apparent that reason and facts don't work on a big chunk of people anymore which is exactly the reason why they shouldn't be pandered to with a more balanced centrist approach.

    the far-right simply targets disenfranchised people who are the product of a rotten system that is heavily skewed to favour the haves. my point about having trump rather than clinton is that at least we didn't get four more years of that system slowly making inequality worse while dressed in a nice pantsuit but rather rang an alarm how fucked up everything is and that the establishment has to change.
     
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  25. RaspberrySwirl

    RaspberrySwirl Leftover

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    :turd: is the colour of the basket of deplorables.
     
  26. Mugatu

    Mugatu onlyfans.com/mugatu

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    The answer is both, obviously. I still think what I said is true but Labour from 2017, with a fresher Corbyn, would have won this election.

    There's no clear message this time, just this laundry list of policies foisted on the party by some of the less strategy-minded parts of the membership, some of which aren't even in the manifesto (open borders, 4-day week, self-consciously edgy rhetoric about smashing capitalism etc). I'll be disappointed to be proven right about losing in the Midlands and the North, but supporting Remain in all-but-name was always going to end up with that happening.

    I've no idea who the next Labour leader is going to be, but realistically they're not going to have to spend half their interviews effectively defending the EU, which will be a bonus. Depending on who wins, the anti-Semitism furore will probably dissipate too. I still think Corbynism can be electable but when you have one wing of people who want their next leader signed off on by Rupert Murdoch, and one wing of faux-radicals who are convinced your average boomer voter wants fully automated luxury communism, then you're in a tricky spot. Call me a centrist, I guess.

    I'd be interested to hear what policies you consider realistic and pragmatic, and which you don't (and which one of your haters tries to insinuate that you're a Nazi afterwards)

    An accurate tweet about the future of the left:

     
  27. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

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    Kamala Harris dropped out.
     
  28. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

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    Article 1 adopted by the House.

    Trump now technically impeached.
     
  29. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

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    Article 2 also adopted.
     
  30. Diddy

    Diddy Rice Queen

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    What does this mean? Does this mean he’s cancelled? Not relevant? Did they consider his Billboard Jazz chart number ones?
     
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  31. KindaCool

    KindaCool KayCee

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    It means he'll go on trial before the Senate. The Senate majority is Republican so removal is very unlikely. But the fight is more important in some ways.

    By Moopy's standards he's irrelevant because we don't like him and cannot name a minimum of 2 songs by him

    By Billboard's standards he's #1 on the Bubbling Under Charts
     
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  32. Shirley

    Shirley BIG-HEARTED BUNNY

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    I wanna be RULED by NANCY PELOSI with a BIG MALLET like NOW
     
  33. SDF

    SDF We're all Angles in Chainz

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    Jancelled :disco:
     
  34. Indie

    Indie REMAIN INDOORS

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    Mmm, peaches.
     
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  35. jivafox

    jivafox chalamet & chill

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    The Senate will now have to decide whether to convict and/or remove him from office.

    Can’t see that happening. :D
     
  36. octophone

    octophone Techno Poo

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    Yeah, but he's going to break under the pressure. He's going to crack up, he's going to crack up publicly and it's going to be horrible. Believe me - it will not be "satisfying" or "deserved", it will be awful. Just wait.
     
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  37. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    FINGERS CROSSED
     
  38. jivafox

    jivafox chalamet & chill

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    He’s already told one of the congresswomen who voted that her late husband is in hell. At a Christmas rally.
     
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  39. octophone

    octophone Techno Poo

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    This is what I mean. It's horrible. HE'S horrible.
     
  40. ameraal

    ameraal huzzah!

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    i wonder what pence is up to.

    *shudder*
     

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