UK midweeks - December/Xmas 2018

Discussion in 'Charts' started by Jark, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. octophone

    octophone fucking ADMIN, bitches

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    Oh, get off yr high horse. I'm entitled to my opinion that including streaming in the charts was and is a fool's errand which has caused them nothing but difficulties. If you decline to part with yr cash for a tune, it shouldn't count and that will remain my opinion until they somehow come up with a way of making it work i.e. not the one they have right now.
     
  2. Alla

    Alla ®

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    GOOD.
     
  3. Slave

    Slave User

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    We probably would end up with a Mariah/Wham! top 2 for a while.

    But if it was that distressing to people, they’d find a way to overcome it in the same way the annual X Factor Christmas #1 was driven out before streaming did the job.
     
  4. Indie

    Indie Terrorvision synthesiser

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    You mean we can have Rage Against The Machine at #1 every Christmas?

    I'd like that.
     
  5. Iguana

    Iguana One two CHA CHA CHA

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    Wombling Merry Christmas really needs to correct the atrocity of only getting to number 2. The campaign for Christmas #1 2019 starts here
     
  6. Slave

    Slave User

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    The people will find SOME cause.

    Definitely harder to manipulate but probably not impossible.
     
  7. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    I do think ultimately the OCC will remove older songs into their own chart.
     
  8. Jark

    Jark User

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    So then we can have a Christmas top 10 full of songs nobody has really been listening to since November.

    GREAT.
     
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  9. Dark Carnival

    Dark Carnival Missss Vaaaaaanjie

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    Jark, u ok hun?
     
  10. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    Yes, I'm not sure how I feel about it either, given what we're working with.

    But the OCC signalled clear intent to treat them differently when they brought the rule in, and it hasn't really worked - or at least with sales continuing to decrease and streaming to increase, they are going to have to tinker with the rules repeatedly to deny Christmas songs, if that's what they want.

    Like I said previously, I think they have two choices - either level the playing field and admit defeat (although looking at this year that would give Mariah three weeks at #1 every year), or exclude them entirely and create a catalogue or Christmas chart.
     
  11. Jark

    Jark User

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    Just IMAGINE how APOPLECTIC I'll be when Mariah isn't #1 tomorrow! I'll be rolling straight for the morgue on that hospital bed :(
     
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  12. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    I just realised the Top 13 all had 1m+ streams on Spotify Christmas Day. And that thank u, next was the biggest non Christmas song at #57 with 340k.
     
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  13. Ag

    Ag User

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    Will be curious to see the drop off from yesterday.
     
  14. octophone

    octophone fucking ADMIN, bitches

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    It's basically "radio play" in the Charts, except instead of radio playlists, it's Spotify playlists. People wanting to hear an old Christmas song at Christmas shouldn't be bothering the week-to-week charts in the same way that it didn't when all the radio stations played them daft in the 80's/90's.

    I think lolly's right; they'll end up hiving them off - anything more than 5 years old will go into its own chart. Fannying about with the numbers has just created a fudge.
     
  15. Slave

    Slave User

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    Historically though, the OCC has “aged” songs by weeks on the chart, not time since release.
     
  16. Jark

    Jark User

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    Friday 21 - Mariah 695k (2017: 480k); Ariana 467k; Ava 410k
    Saturday - Mariah 712k (2017: 570k); Ariana 446k; Ava 393k
    Sunday - Mariah 753k (2017: 600k); Ariana 395k; Ava 355k
    Monday - Mariah 1.188m (2017: 890k); Ariana 397k; Ava 362k
    Tuesday - Mariah 1.638m (2017: 1.299m); Ariana 340k; Ava 302k
    Wednesday - Mariah 259k; Ariana 369k; Ava 337k

    Thursday -

    6-day totals:
    Mariah - 5.245m
    Ariana - 2.414m
    Ava - 2.159m

    So in theory if they take the thursday sales figure as an average of the other 6 (is that true? it seems ridiculous), Mariah would still come out on top from Spotify.
     
  17. Pingu

    Pingu Never thought I'd work again

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    Only for streaming, not for overall sales, and it was definitely true a couple of years ago.

    Not sure it’s changed now but considering midweeks always have a day of streaming missing it seems plausible.
     
  18. Jark

    Jark User

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    Unclear what data is missing, but #1 in today's midweek, with a 4k lead is...

    ...

    :disco:
     
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  19. octophone

    octophone fucking ADMIN, bitches

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    If Mariah's #1 tomorrow, Jark is going to die from excessive spunk production. He'll be found a dehydrated husk, approximately 4.6lbs of desiccated skin tissue, lying in a foetal position surrounded by a moat of semen of such depth and viscosity, they'll call in Mulder and Scully to be on the side of safety.
     
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  20. Jark

    Jark User

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    I'd rather they call in Rosemary and Thyme
     
  21. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    Streaming is and should be valid in the charts in some form - it's how so many people listen to music now, how can it be ignored? If the chart was just physical sales and dying downloads in the current climate it would arguably be far more irrelevant than it is now.

    But I agree it needs to be paid for. I know there is some kind of ratio difference, but Spotify etc should only count from PAID accounts. There should be no exception to this. Although that is a tricky argument as the free accounts have adverts and no one says the television ratings on a commercial channel shouldn't count because we don't "pay" for it.

    A big difference would be Spotify not including plays from playlists to count, only plays from the artist's page, where you've saved the song or added it manually to your own playlist but 1) I don't know if they can even do that and 2) I doubt Spotify have any reason to give a shit.

    It's all a mind fuck.
     
  22. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    I'm sure they can determine which tracks are actively searched for, instead of thrown up on a playlist.

    I'd include a personally curated playlist, but not one (or at least with a much higher ratio) from a Spotify one.
     
  23. Rita

    Rita User

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    I am still here for a Mariah number 1.

    COME ON GIRL!! :disco:
     
  24. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    Isn't the problem that anyone can share a playlist on Spotify or have I made that up? There's a few different genre playlists I follow that seem to have been made by random people. So they would have to make it so all of this is disregarded somehow unless you have sourced the track yourself or "saved" it to your library. Or like you say just exclude the official lists for a start..
     
  25. SDF

    SDF The Wait is Over

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    If she has “just” a 4K lead with those streaming numbers I really can’t see it being number 1 tomorrow. :(
     
  26. Sheena

    Sheena MAKE IT QUICK, LUCILLE!

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    Exactly. Yes, a massive shame the OCC has fucked it all up (again) but surely there’s no chance now on that basis?
     
  27. Jark

    Jark User

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    Excluding playlists is a fucking nonsense anyway because (a) it assumes everybody passively lets playlists play without choosing actively from them, which is clearly not true considering some tracks are played and cherry picked vastly more than others and (b) even if that is how you listen, you're repeatedly choosing to and you're listening to that playlist because you enjoy it which makes it just as valid as going to an artist's page. The idea that a playlist play should count for less or not at all is madness.
     
  28. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    And there's still the problem with the same songs popping up on the charts each year. I said this before but technically by current rules won't the best selling songs of all time be Christmas songs by the time we're through? That's just ridiculous.

    Is there no limit to the amount of sales you can rack up on a Spotify account? Surely no more than 2 should be allowed? And that's it, no matter how much you play it thereafter.

    Just do a separate chart of most popular songs in the moment. So anyone who has given Mariah Carey a sale or 2 this Christmas, if they're using the same account, should count for nothing in the official chart next year.
     
  29. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    I suppose I don't like it because playlist plays feels far, far too close to "radio play counting towards the charts" for me. It's just not enough to count as a sale.

    Also, wrong or right, yeah, I do assume a lot of people passively play playlists - and I doubt it's an entirely incorrect assumption. My 17 year old niece does it for a start. It MUST make a difference...
     
  30. Slave

    Slave User

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    But no such limit was placed on buying physical singles.

    Yes, suspicious patterns of buying were discounted, but there was nothing to stop loons buying 4-5 copies of a single.

    Why should Spotify be any different?

    The only way I can see anything significant changing is if streaming services introduce a “commercial” tier to differentiate between personal accounts and those used for business, since you might then be able to discern a little more between passive and active plays.
     
  31. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    I was thinking of the whole buying multiple copies of physical singles and I don't think it's the same at all. For a start, that was very much of the moment, in that you could only do it once for a song unless it was re-released. And there were only a few fans really who would go that length. I doubt most number ones were achieved from that method..

    With streaming services is it right that, in time, we can all rack up endless sales of the same song if we chose to? Just let an account cap at 2 to 3 sales for a single song..
     
  32. Slave

    Slave User

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    The only time of year this is really an issue is Christmas. Maybe the answer is to have a Christmas singles chart, rather than just relegate ALL singles deemed to be “older”. For the most part the focus of the charts is still on newer material.

    I only say that in as much as I think the fact that Three Lions got to #1 again in 2018 very much tells the story of those few weeks over the summer and I don’t think it’s wrong that it was allowed to happen.

    On the other hand, as much as I would LOVE Mariah to grab the #1, it’s really only happenstance that it would be this year. She hasn’t done anything that makes 2018 stand out as a notable year for the song.
     
  33. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    There was a limit on physical formats at least.
     
  34. Slave

    Slave User

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    Only in as much as shops couldn’t stock INFINITE amounts of singles.

    There were nonetheless stories of labels going out and buying HUNDREDS of copies of singles to inflate first week sales.
     
  35. Raining On Me

    Raining On Me Jesus Loves Winners

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    I'm not sure what I'm even arguing anyway, if anything. If streaming must be included, which I believe it should be, but everything was tweaked how we wanted, would the charts be drastically different to what they are? Ariana would likely still have sailed to number one with that lazy half-breath of a song and we'd probably be as we are now give or take.

    Like you say it's just Christmas it's a big issue and I take exception to songs continuing to rack up what counts as "sales".

    We've just had a novelty song as Christmas number one so the chart still has some familiarity.
     
  36. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    And in as much as only three formats could count towards the chart.
     
  37. Slave

    Slave User

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    You could still buy multiples of them though.
     
  38. Diddy

    Diddy Rice Queen

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    I think people need to make up their minds. Do you want a chart that reflects the data or do you want one that goes the way you want (whatever that would be)?

    The OCC appear to be taking the latter route, with the goal to be to have more new songs.

    But you can’t have it both ways, unless by good fortune people are actually listening to new music more often than established hits. And there’s a good chance most of those new hits are made by listening - passively or otherwise - to things like the new music playlist
     
  39. lolly

    lolly Rowena? From Kuwait?

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    Yes, although latterly 'suspicious' activity was monitored. And I'd also question doing it repeatedly, week after week.

    Ultimately, as I've said before, I see the main problem is trying to combine sales and streams into one chart. It can't be done in any meaningful way, and the way it has been tinkered with multiple times just highlights that. They are essentially two different things, and arguing the merits of either is pretty futile, at least when it comes to combining them.

    We have a pure sales chart and a streaming chart - I'd rather pick one or the other, or even both.
     
  40. Diddy

    Diddy Rice Queen

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    This feels a bit like our last gasp as chart nerds. How many of us now are conscious about who is number one each week? We don’t even have a thread with the charts each week, and this is the chart forum!

    Streaming being combined was inevitable, and I thought the logic at the time was as sound as was feasible, based broadly on song revenue from streaming compared to physical/download.

    But then they decided they couldn’t leave it alone, and too many old hits were hanging around, and at that point they really gave up trying to reflect the data, by differentiating older songs or those on the way down. THAT was where I had to give up.
     

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