A big topic for the Labour party and Jeremy Corbyn

[Jark]

I think this would benefit from having its own thread where we can discuss individual seats and the state of Labour going into the upcoming GE without it being about Boris or Brexit.

Nice Guardian video about Faiza Shaheen campaigning to overturn Iain Duncan Smith's slim majority in Chingford



She seems FAB. Poor love getting a lot of stick for Corbyn though

 

[VoR]

It's early days, but we'll have to see if they can top holding a meeting on how to tackle Antisemitism without bothering to involve any Jewish groups, and holding said meeting on The Sabbath. Great work everyone!

 

[Kala]

They’re absolutely dead in the water in Scotland and I can’t see that changing any time soon.

 

[Rita]

Are we getting a GE then? I thought parliament turned it down?

 

[GinAg (39)]

God they're shit. Trying to get rid of Tom Watson now.

 

[Indie]

God they're shit. Trying to get rid of Tom Watson now.

You can hardly blame them. Tom Watson is doing his best to undermine Labour at every opportunity.

However it's the wrong move. You don't stop it by banishing him, it will only make things worse.

 

[VoR]

It's made them look utterly ridiculous (again). Also I really don't see what Tom Watson does that is so bad. I suspect that without him, the schism between Momentum and the more centrist wing of the party would have grown even wider much faster.

 

[dmlaw]

Nice to see that the momentum people trying to get rid of the centrists are every bit as stupid as the centrists trying to get rid of the momentum people. Do you think that you could possibly stop fighting amongst yourselves until the Tories are dead?

 

[Mugatu]

Watson has always positioned himself as an alternate leader, not a deputy. He sets his own policy, even when it undermines the agreed direction of the party, especially on Brexit. Corbyn correctly recognised the motion's awful timing, but having someone so divisive as deputy is an untenable situation in the long-term.

And regardless on your stance on getting rid of him, I don't think you can regard this level of sway that long-gone former leaders can have on the inside of Labour as a good thing. If the left is to determine the party's future, then the old guard will have to let go eventually.

 

[cwej]

They just look so stupid doing this at a time when a GE is around the corner. The Tories look completely all over the place and so Labour had a real chance, but they just can't stop fighting with each other. It's ludicrous.

How the Lib Dems are not getting a much bigger swing is beyond me - they have a unified party, who are clear on their position on pretty much everything, which both the two main parties are unable to say in the slightest at the moment.

 

[Jark]

Bespectacled skinny legend Tom Watson is the only senior Labour MP with a functioning brain right now, getting rid of him has no advantages whatsoever except serving to make Corbyn a little more totalitarian. So they'd better not.

 

[GNL]

Remember when Tom Watson kicked out a bunch of Labour members because they had been supporters of the Green/Socialist parties and he didn't want them to vote for Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Such unity, such togetherness.

But I understand getting rid of the dude who has been skipping meetings and undermining official party policy in the press is bad because it... err... makes the party look divided.

 

[GinAg (39)]

If Corbyn doesn't become PM (which is legit 50/50 right now) I really hope he quits. I dunno who'd replace him. Sadly so many blinkered Owen Jones followers have a vote that I can see Dennis Skinner taking over.

 

[Jark]

Whatever's currently going on in the Labour party is really scary. There surely can't be any Corbynistas left to defend his so-called honour after the absolute shitshow orchestrated by his inner circle of evil vultures holding the rest of the party to ransom this weekend.

The notion that Labour will: win a GE (in which it will refuse to take a stance on the one issue everybody gives a shit about), renegotiate a deal, and then put that deal to the public without offering support for it, and then hold a "special conference" to discuss its stance democratically (when it should be the only topic on the agenda at the actual Labour party conference happening literally right now) is... absurd. It's insane. And worse, 100% transparent as the attempt to stifle any and all democracy and stick two fingers up to 90% of constituency Labour party members and 75% of the Labour-voting GP that it is. This is the kind of revolting political disgrace we wouldn't bat an eye at coming from the Tories, but somehow its dirty mechanisms have begun to take hold inside Labour. (I mean, we know how, but...)

Let's not even get into that abhorrent plot to oust Watson, which JC evidently knew about well in advance, and which was clearly about making sure the right person is in place when Corbyn is forced to step aside (at least everybody knows that day is looming large now). It's deeply ironic at this point to think back to the time of his election as Labour leader when he was widely considered the anti-establishment people's politician who didn't play the game - he's playing the game now, isn't he? Shame it's at the expense of his own party.

The whole thing is so toxic it's chilling. Or is it just tragic? I can't tell anymore. How far Labour have fallen.

 

[Jark]

If Corbyn doesn't become PM (which is legit 50/50 right now)

It absolutely is not. There's no viable scenario in which Corbyn becomes PM. Can't win a GE and Jo Swinson wouldn't be caught dead in an arrangement with him.

 

[Christian]

The MINUS 60 approval rating he got last week (the lowest of any leader of the opposition in the 40 years they've been measuring this) must surely be cause for concern even amongst his most loyal followers.

 

[GinAg (39)]

It absolutely is not. There's no viable scenario in which Corbyn becomes PM. Can't win a GE and Jo Swinson wouldn't be caught dead in an arrangement with him.

Totally forgot Swinson had said no. We're fucked.

 

[Jark]

If anything good as come of this it's the Guardian's coverage, which is gold.

In the wake of the conspiracy’s failure, the Labour leader’s spinners are briefing – and I am struggling to type this without fainting in disbelief – that Mr Corbyn himself did not know that his own capos were going to attempt a drive-by shooting of his deputy.

A key player in the scheme was Len McCluskey, the general secretary of Unite, whose clout flows from the fact that his union is the party’s largest donor and the leader’s coterie is populated with his close associates. Once such good friends that they shared a flat together, he and Mr Watson have long been locked in a bitter feud. There’s no loathing so deep as that between former flatmates who have fallen out.

This is a big and poisonous change in the culture of British politics. Both the Conservatives and Labour used to be proud to call themselves broad churches, capable of encompassing and speaking for many strands of opinion and they made that central to their appeal to the electorate. Now both are behaving like viciously intolerant sects.

 

[VoR]

The whole thing is an absolute train wreck. Corbyn has shown his true colours in every regard this past week. Dreadful.

Boris must be absolutely howling with laughter.

 

[Cerro de Casa]

When I was younger I used to look at people who said 'politicians are all as bad as each other' with intellectual disdain.

Now I see that they were right all along.

 

[Mugatu]

Four million Labour supporters voted Leave in the referendum, many in important marginal seats in the Midlands and the North that will decide the election.

How do you protect those votes without a credible Leave option? Most people around here just want Brexit sorted and will quite rightly regard Labour becoming an unequivocal Remain party as a stitch-up. A second referendum is bad enough.

I’m not going to go into the ridiculous false equivalences drawn between Labour and the Tories (who, by the way, actually had the guts to get rid of those consistently undermining the elected party leadership, and are faring better for it), or smearing life-long trade unionists as evil.

Len McCluskey is right – the biggest divide in this country isn’t Leave vs Remain, it’s the workers against the bosses. And this idiotic Brexit culture war is being pushed to stop us realising it.

 

[Kala]

This thread, and many others on Moopy just goes to show the deep divide between Labour Party supporters - countless arguments that keep going round and round. No bloody wonder the party is in the state it’s in when you are constantly bickering with each other. Until you can come together the party is fucked.

 

[Jark]

Are you saying Moopy has the power to save the Labour party?

 

[Mugatu]

This thread, and many others on Moopy just goes to show the deep divide between Labour Party supporters - countless arguments that keep going round and round. No bloody wonder the party is in the state it’s in when you are constantly bickering with each other. Until you can come together the party is fucked.

These conversations need to be had, we can't use telepathy. All of this stuff about "coming together" is so over-simplistic - it's not about the tone of the conversation, it's about the content.

The left of Labour has fought tooth and nail since 2015 to have the overwhelming mandate Corbyn won (twice) respected by the rest of the party.

As with the referendum result, the liberals have made it very clear that they are now incapable of accepting their own defeat. It's time our side toughened up and saw that.

 

[VoR]

These conversations need to be had, we can't use telepathy. All of this stuff about "coming together" is so over-simplistic - it's not about the tone of the conversation, it's about the content.

The left of Labour has fought tooth and nail since 2015 to have the overwhelming mandate Corbyn won (twice) respected by the rest of the party.

As with the referendum result, the liberals have made it very clear that they are now incapable of accepting their own defeat. It's time our side toughened up and saw that.

Despite the fact that the vast majority of the party, and his own shadow cabinet, openly disagree with his position on Brexit?

It kind of sounds like what you're saying is that because he won the leadership election, he should get to be an autocrat. That's a really dangerous road to go down...

 

[VoR]

Also, you can keep quoting the four million Labour leave voters, but realistically, do you truly, honestly think Labour are going to win an imminent general election the way things stand now?

You might not like it, but Brexit is the defining issue of our age. The Tories are split, the Lib Dems have over-stepped by standing on an unequivocal withdraw article 50 platform, there's a fucking huge open goal for Labour, but instead Corbyn seems content to drift into the next election on the same vague, half-hearted fence sitting position that arguably caused Remain to lose the referendum in the first place.

 

[Mugatu]

Stop being ridiculous @VoR, where on earth did I say he should become an autocrat?

The disagreements within the current Shadow Cabinet are minor ones – and at any rate, Corbyn has said that he will respect the decision of the membership. I have a preference to how that decision would go, like most people.

What I’m saying is that there is a certain amount of people in the party and the press who are continually speaking out against the leadership and expecting no repercussions, like Tom Watson and his cronies.

That’s what Corbyn and the left movement needs to toughen up against. We’ve spent too long worrying about division and not enough time wielding our democratically-won power.

The defining issue of our age is inequality, not Brexit. The wealthy will continue to exploit the working class, in or out. Remain lost the referendum because of the government and the EU’s blithe acceptance of it, not because of some urban myth about Corbyn not doing enough speeches.

 

[Mugatu]

And you write off those Leave votes at your peril because Corbyn’s replacement is going to need them as much as he will.

If we don’t leave the EU, there will be millions of voters who feel disenfranchised by politics as a whole, not just by Labour. It's far tougher to get those votes back, compared to Lib Dem converts whose main aversion is to Corbyn himself.

 

[GinAg (39)]

four million Labour leave voters

I'll bet that's barely even half that by now. Fuck 'em. As you say Brexit is the defining political issue of right now, whether it should be or not. There's a historical political readjustment taking place and Labour needs to accept that. Once they have, they can focus on bringing some very appealing social policies to forefront with less distraction. Sadly Corbyn holds them back TIME AND AGAIN.

 

[VoR]

Stop being ridiculous @VoR, where on earth did I say he should become an autocrat?

The disagreements within the current Shadow Cabinet are minor ones – and at any rate, Corbyn has said that he will respect the decision of the membership. I have a preference to how that decision would go, like most people.

What I’m saying is that there is a certain amount of people in the party and the press who are continually speaking out against the leadership and expecting no repercussions, like Tom Watson and his cronies.

That’s what Corbyn and the left movement needs to toughen up against. We’ve spent too long worrying about division and not enough time wielding our democratically-won power.

The defining issue of our age is inequality, not Brexit. The wealthy will continue to exploit the working class, in or out. Remain lost the referendum because of the government and the EU’s blithe acceptance of it, not because of some urban myth about Corbyn not doing enough speeches.

You didn't answer my question. It's fine if you think I'm a ridiculous Corbyn hater. But I'm referring to consistent evidence that Corbyn's direction is not working for voters. He's polling absolutely terribly. How do you square that?

 

[RaspberrySwirl]

Four million Labour supporters voted Leave in the referendum, many in important marginal seats in the Midlands and the North that will decide the election.

A good socialist/leftist leader should instead focus on making these four millions realize how their situation won’t improve without a deal (or any other scenario designed by the right).

 

[Mugatu]

You didn't answer my question. It's fine if you think I'm a ridiculous Corbyn hater. But I'm referring to consistent evidence that Corbyn's direction is not working for voters. He's polling absolutely terribly. How do you square that?

I’ve got no intention of making it personal, anytime I do is because the other person went there first. I don’t find you ridiculous, I think the suggestion that I support autocracy is ridiculous, but I don’t know you personally so I wouldn’t go there.

To answer the question: yes, I do think there’s still a good chance that Corbyn will become Prime Minister. We have no idea what will happen a month from now, Boris might not even be there. He might be in the Tower of London.

We were in this exact same position in 2017 – people predicting the sky was going to fall in, bad polling, whatever, and it worked out a lot better once the media were forced to cover something other than stupid palace intrigue.

Nobody has answered my question either: how does Labour win an election without the votes of Brexit supporters?

 

[RaspberrySwirl]

Nobody has answered my question either: how does Labour win an election without the votes of Brexit supporters?

Unless they persuade them to change their opinion on Brexit, they won’t win them. If the other major party has come out as a Leave party, then Labour has to back Remain. As long as their position on Brexit is vague then they’ll loose both the leftist brexiteers and the centrist remainers.

(Obviously, if the Tories would choose Remain then Labour should back Leave.)

 

[Mugatu]

A good socialist/leftist leader should instead focus on making these four millions realize how their situation won’t improve without a deal (or any other scenario designed by the right).

If Brexit is the defining issue of the day, with everyone entrenched on one side or the other, then hearing another politician telling the electorate that they were wrong in 2016 isn't going to go so well either. It's a logical inconsistency.

I'm dubious about Brexit and its effects on the country but the idea that people haven't already given a clear instruction on this isn't true. Carrying it out should unfortunately take primacy.

 

[VoR]

If Brexit is the defining issue of the day, with everyone entrenched on one side or the other, then hearing another politician telling the electorate that they were wrong in 2016 isn't going to go so well either. It's a logical inconsistency.

I'm dubious about Brexit and its effects on the country but the idea that people haven't already given a clear instruction on this isn't true. Carrying it out should unfortunately take primacy.

So to reverse your question, how do Labour win an election without the votes of Remain supporters?

They're going to take a hit either way, but the fact is Corbyn is polling even worse now than he did in 2017, an election that, lest we forget, he lost. This. Strategy. Isn't. Working.

 

[RaspberrySwirl]

If Brexit is the defining issue of the day, with everyone entrenched on one side or the other, then hearing another politician telling the electorate that they were wrong in 2016 isn't going to go so well either. It's a logical inconsistency.

I'm dubious about Brexit and its effects on the country but the idea that people haven't already given a clear instruction on this isn't true. Carrying it out should unfortunately take primacy.

True, but I don’t think they should tell them they were wrong; they need to explain what’s on the menu now and what it means for the white working class. What do they think will get better by leaving?

 

[Mugatu]

So to reverse your question, how do Labour win an election without the votes of Remain supporters?

They're going to take a hit either way, but the fact is Corbyn is polling even worse now than he did in 2017, an election that, lest we forget, he lost. This. Strategy. Isn't. Working.

I voted Remain and will vote for Labour. I imagine there are many people like me that see a Tory government as the greater threat.

As much as I think it's a bad idea, Labour are also the only route to a second referendum. At their peak, the Lib Dems barely won 60 seats. I'd be surprised if they exceed that.

What strategy do you want, beyond that? I assume a new leader, but who?

 

[Jark]

Hasn't everybody been quite clear on what strategy they want?

We want Corbyn and Labour to come out in full support of remain. To campaign to stay in the EU via a second referendum. It's still possible. Many, many more Labour voters voted Remain than Leave, so why are we more worried about the Leave ones?

What it all boils down to is that the party is being lead by people who want something vastly different from their own MPs, members and voter base. It's arrogant, it's horribly short sighted, and it has to align immediately, otherwise they will suffer significant losses in the GE and potentially be permanently burned by the refusal to at least TRY to reverse Brexit. And worse, we will be stuck with Boris and crash out of Europe in horrible economic circumstances.

The only strategy anyone wants is Labour to do the right fucking thing and campaign to stay. That's it. It's so simple.

 

[Mugatu]

Mystery tagger: I didn't do the VoR tag, as I've said many times, anon tagging is beneath me.

 

[big ron]

You might not like it, but Brexit is the defining issue of our age. The Tories are split, the Lib Dems have over-stepped by standing on an unequivocal withdraw article 50 platform, there's a fucking huge open goal for Labour, but instead Corbyn seems content to drift into the next election on the same vague, half-hearted fence sitting position that arguably caused Remain to lose the referendum in the first place.

What should he do then, The Tories are pro leave, the Lib Dems, as you've stated, have gone for full revoke and remain, which is sadly just as polarising as Boris WE WILL LEAVE ON THE 31st bullshit. So then what? Where else can Labour go?

I personally think that offering to extend A50, renegotiating a better deal and then putting that to the public is the fairest and most sensible offer on the table, and I say that as someone who would love nothing more than to see Brexit disappear.