The Last of Us Part 2 (and the review conundrum)

[Raining on Me]

Not sure if people on moopy are fussed by this or not, personally I loved the first game and rank it up there with the finest of all time. The story and dialogue was INCREDIBLE.

Now this is out there and I'm bewildered and worried at the same time. I know reviews can be taken with a pinch of salt and especially the difference between critics/users on Metacritic but has there ever been such a vast contrast as this? The difference is an average user score of about 3/10 versus a critic average that puts it up there as one of the highest rated games ever made!

I know a lot of it is trolling, but this is quite extreme, no? Or are we just at the point now where the big releases are inevitably going to be slated just because it's so easy to abuse that power en masse? Yet at the opposite end of the spectrum we have 10/10 critic reviews, with the age old response of "they're paid to say that". Again, I'm sure that's always existed, but unless I'm being naive I don't recall a divide quite like this before?

Digging around elsewhere seems to bring up the same opinions, slating the story and characters, which were vital in the first one, and relentless, questionable violence. But, to go deeper, I know there's a lot of LGBT vibes in this and a lot of comments range from thinly veiled trans/homophobia up to real disappointment they've pushed for a "woke" approach at the expense of characters/story. I suspect that's bollocks and it will fit in fine but this is all very jarring.

The only way to find out is to pop it into my little machine and play, but I'm SCARED now My expectations are significantly cooler though, which is probably a good thing...

 

[Raining on Me]

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle and it's a solid 8.5/10 game that simply doesn't live up to the first, hence the extreme public reaction (trolling aside).

Yet I want to believe all those "best game evah!" critic reviews. Generally I find the list of highest rated games to be pretty fair overall, of the ones I've played, so hoping this won't buck the trend...

 

[Phoenix]

I mean the game was released to the public 24 hours ago. Don’t underestimate how much the general gamer community is toxic and hates women and gays and the protagonist is both.

 

[Dark Carnival]

Hi geeks I don’t have much to add but my best friend is in love with the guy from the first game. He’s legit the love of his life.

 

[Phoenix]

Hi geeks I don’t have much to add but my best friend is in love with the guy from the first game. He’s legit the love of his life.

The actor or the digital character? Cause they look quite different

 

[Dark Carnival]

Definitely the digital character coz that is SO NOT his type!

 

[Raining on Me]

I mean the game was released to the public 24 hours ago. Don’t underestimate how much the general gamer community is toxic and hates women and gays and the protagonist is both.

Oh yeah I get that - jesus christ gaming forums are horrifying places these days, makes moopy circa 2007 look like a gardening forum.

This game does sound like RELENTLESS MISERY but then the first was hardly a CARRY ON film. My worry is they've fucked up on story/characters but we'll see.

 

[Raining on Me]

Hi geeks I don’t have much to add but my best friend is in love with the guy from the first game. He’s legit the love of his life.

Joel is a hot piece it's true

 

[Peekaboo]

Digging around elsewhere seems to bring up the same opinions, slating the story and characters, which were vital in the first one, and relentless, questionable violence. But, to go deeper, I know there's a lot of LGBT vibes in this and a lot of comments range from thinly veiled trans/homophobia up to real disappointment they've pushed for a "woke" approach at the expense of characters/story. I suspect that's bollocks and it will fit in fine but this is all very jarring.

At the risk of STIRRING CONTROVERSY particularly as I have NOT played the first one and this sequel doesn't hold much interest for me, aren't these games just another particularly violent version of the very male survival horror fantasy à la Walking Dead, turbo-charged Resident Evils without the campness and the schlock but full to the brim with some strange delusion of high art? It's great that they've added a lesbian character to it but at the end of the day it looks like another GLORIFIED GUN-TOTTING BEAR GRYLLS FANTASY for SHY TEENAGE BOYS.

 

[Phoenix]

At the risk of STIRRING CONTROVERSY particularly as I have NOT played the first one and this sequel doesn't hold much interest for me, aren't these games just another particularly violent version of the very male survival horror fantasy à la Walking Dead, turbo-charged Resident Evils without the campness and the schlock but full to the brim with some strange delusion of high art? It's great that they've added a lesbian character to it but at the end of the day it looks like another GLORIFIED GUN-TOTTING BEAR GRYLLS FANTASY for SHY TEENAGE BOYS.

That’s not a controversial opinion just a bit lazy “A thing I don’t care for has to be stupid otherwise how can I not appreciate it”.

The first game had some great story telling, it’s not MY all time favorite game or anything but it definitely had an effect on video games.

 

[Peekaboo]

That’s not a controversial opinion just a bit lazy “A thing I don’t care for has to be stupid otherwise how can I not appreciate it”.

I'm not saying it's stupid... I'm saying that the gameplay (you know, the reason why this is a videogame and not a Hollywood blockbuster) just looks exactly like every other hyper-violent macho fantasy blockbuster that has been catering for the biggest gaming demographic since its beginnings, young impressionable males. It's not like SARAH WATERS suddenly wrote a dyke-tastic game that became a global hit, looking at the credits it's the usual bunch of WHITE MALE NAMES directing, writing and producing.

 

[Raining on Me]

@Peekaboo that is...quite some unfair and basic pigeonholing going on there!

I don't think it fits into that category at ALL. Elements, yes, but it's a game, it has guns, so that's inevitable but that is nowhere near its purpose. I mean I generally HATE those sorts of games, I pretty much never play shooting ones like Call of Duty etc, they've never held an interest to me. I'm sure many fit into that "gun-toting fantasy for impressionable straight males" category, that is gaming's biggest demographic after all. Equally though I'm sure some have real merit so it's a bit of a blanket statement to throw them all under that same scathing description They're not for me at all (not that they're aimed at me), I find them dull as fuck, yet I'd rank the original of this in my all time top 20 probably, so how does that work?

In fact the point of The Last of Us is generally NOT to shoot things if you can. It's far, far from a brainless bullet mashing cacophony. It's survival horror, same approach as Resident Evil but on a bigger scale and yes, without the camp B-movie aspect, but again don't knock them for taking a serious approach - it's not "high art" but it IS amazing storytelling, with two thoroughly engaging characters. The way they created a post-apocalyptic world is beautiful, the environments are stunning and the attention to detail is just so admirable - you really want to explore every inch of it. Nothing is depicted as a fantasy but as the horrifying reality it would be. Everyone is shit and behaves like it. The lead character is a cunt, but you totally get why.

As Phoenix said, there's a reason it's won endless accolades and had a huge effect on gaming. I could just never place it alongside typical male shooting wank-off style games that you describe.

 

[Raining on Me]

Although I take your point about the entire white male production thing, but that is an entirely separate debate altogether I suspect...

 

[Mats]

call me straight acting but I'm booting this one up today

 

[Peekaboo]

@Peekaboo that is...quite some unfair and basic pigeonholing going on there!

I don't think it fits into that category at ALL. Elements, yes, but it's a game, it has guns, so that's inevitable but that is nowhere near its purpose. I mean I generally HATE those sorts of games, I pretty much never play shooting ones like Call of Duty etc, they've never held an interest to me. I'm sure many fit into that "gun-toting fantasy for impressionable straight males" category, that is gaming's biggest demographic after all. Equally though I'm sure some have real merit so it's a bit of a blanket statement to throw them all under that same scathing description They're not for me at all (not that they're aimed at me), I find them dull as fuck, yet I'd rank the original of this in my all time top 20 probably, so how does that work?

In fact the point of The Last of Us is generally NOT to shoot things if you can. It's far, far from a brainless bullet mashing cacophony. It's survival horror, same approach as Resident Evil but on a bigger scale and yes, without the camp B-movie aspect, but again don't knock them for taking a serious approach - it's not "high art" but it IS amazing storytelling, with two thoroughly engaging characters. The way they created a post-apocalyptic world is beautiful, the environments are stunning and the attention to detail is just so admirable - you really want to explore every inch of it. Nothing is depicted as a fantasy but as the horrifying reality it would be. Everyone is shit and behaves like it. The lead character is a cunt, but you totally get why.

As Phoenix said, there's a reason it's won endless accolades and had a huge effect on gaming. I could just never place it alongside typical male shooting wank-off style games that you describe.

Fair enough. I have to say on occasion I love mindless shooters as much as the next guy, in fact I prefer them to games like this where violence is presented as "inevitable" because society has broken down and "we really are the last of us"... It's the usual AMERICAN VIGILANTE CRAP that is impossible for me to swallow, but then again I think pretty much the same about all those Hollywood superhero films that are also a big success.

 

[Peekaboo]

The two games have been criticised for glorifying violence by several outlets so I know I'm not the only one uncomfortable with them!

 

[ButterTart]

I never listen to user reviews on games, because the public are spiteful idiots. A lot of negative reviews will absolutely be from the incels objecting to a gay woman being the main character.

 

[Peekaboo]

I never listen to user reviews on games, because the public are spiteful idiots. A lot of negative reviews will absolutely be from the incels objecting to a gay woman being the main character.

Well quite. But if you are making a game that is attracting INCELS like FLIES you'd have to wonder what it is that they see in it that they like...

 

[Raining on Me]

Fair enough. I have to say on occasion I love mindless shooters as much as the next guy, in fact I prefer them to games like this where violence is presented as "inevitable" because society has broken down and "we really are the last of us"... It's the usual AMERICAN VIGILANTE CRAP that is impossible for me to swallow, but then again I think pretty much the same about all those Hollywood superhero films that are also a big success.

Okay, I definitely get that the society breaking down = we all become violent thugs angle could be problematic. I don't object to the idea however, in the sense that it's just one potential outcome for a society, if not for specific individuals. Lots of stories touch on this. And of course, it's just a game at the end of the day - you obviously need some conflict in these things. But yes, although it tries to portray many nuances in character's motivations and beliefs so it's not a total American vigilante style culture, I can't deny it does embrace that somewhat. But it does it so WELL and is more complicated than that.

Incidentally however, the fighting human parts are the least interesting bits in the game, so you know...

 

[Raining on Me]

The two games have been criticised for glorifying violence by several outlets so I know I'm not the only one uncomfortable with them!

They are obviously very violent. I'm not sure about glorifying. I mean I don't get a vibe of "Look kids, bashing this man's skull in because he MIGHT be a raping murderer (who voted for Gilead in Festival Di Soldi) is just fine!". The game makes it all "not okay", apart from when it's a matter of survival against infected, and it deliberately makes you uncomfortable and question things.

Violence is still a running theme however so maybe that IS still "glorifying" it, however you dress it up. Well, this is complicated isn't it?

 

[Mats]

Super Mario glorifies jumping on turtles!!

 

[Mats]

TLoU doesn't glorify violence any more than any other game that has guns and fights and death (like Resident Evil). glorify smacks of Christian Mothers Association parental advice stickers terminology. it employs violence as a means, of course, no doubt about it...

whether this new one is "worse" I can't say yet

 

[Raining on Me]

Also - and this goes back to my original post - that was my worry with the sequel. It's mentioned a LOT. I don't want spoilers but Ellie is basically on a revenge mission (the first was absolutely NOT that - it was arguably about avoiding violence much of the time) that may or may not be questionable, and the criticisms seem to be that much of the violence here is unnecessary and worse, at the expense of character.

So yes, my concern is that everything you say is suddenly true with this sequel, whereas the original was a whole different approach.

And that's where it's utterly bizarre seeing nothing but perfect critical scores against a sea of probable incel/homophobes/generally awful people slating it. Where's the middle ground?

 

[Raining on Me]

glorify smacks of Christian Mothers Association parental advice stickers terminology.

I wondered why Peekaboo gave me that pamphlet...

 

[Mats]

a game that does fit the above criticism: Days Gone. and on most other counts as well it was a sub-par, lacking game

 

[Peekaboo]

Violence is still a running theme however so maybe that IS still "glorifying" it, however you dress it up. Well, this is complicated isn't it?

Ha, well if you think it's complicated over here imagine how this game sits in a country where you can buy firearms IN THE SUPERMARKET and your "self-defense" is ENSHRINED in law

The game's bleak message seems to be that, horrifying as it may be, you have to kill or be killed - that's a fucking terrible message IMO, particularly right now with everything that's going on. I'm not suggesting the game can't be made or that people who enjoy it are all MASS MURDERERS IN WAITING. What I really objected to is making some of the characters in this queer to give a veneer of WOKENESS to a game that is incredibly reactionary.

 

[Peekaboo]

I thought the Polygon review was on point on this:

That is the game’s central problem, and what makes so much of it such a challenge to get through: This is a story about characters who seem unable to learn or grow, and more specifically, unable to consider the humanity of the people they kill. If you already think violence isn’t the answer to many of the world’s problems, the repeated lesson that killing is bad makes the game almost maddening.

Ellie embraces the role of antihero, just as Joel did, and Naughty Dog makes its queer woman protagonist act just as violent and self-involved as the legions of grizzled straight-white-dude video game protagonists who have preceded her. There’s something that feels off about that straightforward swap here; it’s a missed opportunity to explore how the rage of a marginalized character might take on a different form, and what that form may look and sound like. I felt so much hope at the idea of embodying Ellie instead of Joel in this game, but the entire arc she follows was an arc that I easily could have imagined Joel taking instead of her.


That felt disappointing, but not entirely unrealistic. Self-absorbed white teenage lesbians certainly exist, and they’re out there, wearing Chucks and writing mediocre poetry in their journals, just like Ellie does in this game. All the other characters seem like real people, too, even if they might make some shitty choices. But hey, people make shitty choices. It’s kinda what real people do. Part 2’s naturalistic dialogue, bespoke animations, and exploration of subtle body language allow it to cut much deeper when, inevitably, several of these folks die in gruesome, arguably needless ways.

And why? Sure, the real world is brutal and horrific, and this post-apocalyptic fictional world, all the more so. Yet humans can learn and they can change, and that’s what makes a story satisfying, even if it’s a sad one. I wanted these characters to realize and overcome their flaws, to transform in some way, however small. But, again, Part 2 doesn’t tell a story about that. It tells a story about a cycle of violence that no one can escape, and especially not me, the person playing the game. Ellie is trapped, somehow unable to grow, learn, or change, and I’m stuck with her.

This story seems to think I need to experience ridiculous levels of virtual violence in order to believe that maybe, just maybe, Ellie should have learned a little more about her enemies’ personal situations and motivations before slamming a baseball bat into their skulls.

Playing The Last of Us Part 2, a game that supposes that humans will enact violence upon one another to their dying breaths, is a very strange thing in 2020. Naughty Dog created a world in which people across America react to a massive structural crisis by dividing and disconnecting from others, rather than uniting together to demand something better — not just for themselves, but for the most marginalized people in their communities.

I see a widespread level of selflessness and an intense care for the preservation of human life in the real 2020, in fact, and an increasingly loud demand for a society that meets that need. Our systems have failed, in large part, but individual people remain strong and kind. Things have rarely been worse, but there is hope to be found in the actions of average folks fighting to do the right thing. We don’t need a video game to rub our noses in hatred and violence to know that other people who are just trying to survive aren’t the real enemy.

The Last of Us Part 2 depicts individual people who are instead ruthless, capable, yet self-absorbed, and whose perception of violence is limited to how it affects them and their chosen family members. They are almost unbelievably unable to see the bigger picture. Part 2 ends up feeling needlessly bleak, at a time when a nihilistic worldview has perhaps never been less attractive. Its characters are surviving, but they’re not learning, and they’re certainly not making anything better.

Maybe the most surprising thing that The Last of Us Part 2 offered me was the surety that, while the game was made with great skill and craft, we are actually much, much better than Naughty Dog thinks we are.

 

[Indie]

I wouldn't trust user reviews from less than two days of gameplay as far as I could throw them. And yes, it does seem as if there's been a concerted effort to drop scores due to female lead/LGBT connection.

I have ordered this and I'll play it and dare I say ill probably enjoy it.

The first one wasn't a masterpiece, it was a good game. I was frustrated by the linear gameplay, the low variety of activities and the cinematography was good but not as Hollywood as people made out. Nevertheless I still generally enjoyed it.

As for the odd criticism on this thread - its a game. Like it or don't like it, that's your perogative. Does it glorify violence? No more than Game of Thrones.

 

[Mats]

um, the game is set in a zombie infected world... does FICTION not hold any meaning anymore?

 

[COB]

I have no interest in these games but I've followed a bit of the coverage of the campaign against it - one of my favourite bits is that lots of the haters seemed to have decided the female villain was a trans character (and therefore evil LGBT agenda what with the lesbian lead too etc etc) but they based it entirely on the fact she has big muscles, and she's actually not

 

[Peekaboo]

From Vulture:

Then there’s the narrative itself, which is the other way the game gradually confronts players with the consequences of the violence they enact as Ellie. Throughout the story, players fight not just the infected, but also members of a militia, and a strange, violent cult. Lives you end in the first act are recontextualized by a major perspective shift in the second, characters you root against take sympathetic turns, and no faction (besides the zombies) is universally composed of heroes or villains. How do you feel taking a life, the game asks, over and over again, if you know other people cared about that person? Meanwhile, it literally leaves you no other choices.

The Last of Us Part II can be read as a treatise on violence with a surprisingly shallow take: that it is dehumanizing, and terrible despite the care with which it is rendered. That’s not what the game spends 30 hours on, though. Instead, the reason the game needs to be an epic is because it’s interested in an idea even more facile than that: That there are good and bad people on every side of a conflict, that you don’t really know where someone comes from or why they believe what they believe. It wants to be a work that isn’t really against revenge, but tribalism, arguing that the act of people banding together by necessity demands the othering of your peers, and that othering is what breeds violence.

 

[Raining on Me]

Ha, well if you think it's complicated over here imagine how this game sits in a country where you can buy firearms IN THE SUPERMARKET and your "self-defense" is ENSHRINED in law

The game's bleak message seems to be that, horrifying as it may be, you have to kill or be killed - that's a fucking terrible message IMO, particularly right now with everything that's going on. I'm not suggesting the game can't be made or that people who enjoy it are all MASS MURDERERS IN WAITING. What I really objected to is making some of the characters in this queer to give a veneer of WOKENESS to a game that is incredibly reactionary.

I read both of the reviews you posted, and again they hint at something drastically different in this sequel. The tone and narrative seems entirely grimmer, more unpleasant in general. I just don't think that applies so much to the first, even if the world it's created is essentially the same.

I have a problem with that from a story and character perspective because I'm familiar with the previous one.

But...it is still just a game. Is it required to give out messages of hope, to set an example? It's a HORROR game - we have a world depicted as horror, it's just a concept. If humanity was to break down in such a way, would what happened really be any different if games like this didn't exist? I do understand your point and I suspect this sequel gets a lot wrong by pushing for bad choices just to go even darker for the sake of it, but like a horror movie, or any violent tv show with questionable themes, most people aren't going to take anything from it into their real lives. I also don't need a game to turn me into a mass murderer, I'm sure life would be capable enough of that alone if I was so inclined (maybe one day).

I do, sadly, agree with you about the gay characters and appearing "woke". It feels like a horrible lazy thing to say and as a gay man I should be happy of its representation, but something about it screams of the equivalent of the Tories putting a LGBT person front and centre - basically for every purpose except actually believing in it. However that might rather harsh, as I can certainly see how Ellie could be a lesbian and it feeling "organic".

 

[Raining on Me]

Anyway I'm going to go and PLAY the fucking thing RIGHT NOW

 

[Raining on Me]

I have no interest in these games but I've followed a bit of the coverage of the campaign against it - one of my favourite bits is that lots of the haters seemed to have decided the female villain was a trans character (and therefore evil LGBT agenda what with the lesbian lead too etc etc) but they based it entirely on the fact she has big muscles, and she's actually not

! (But also )

For the record I didn't assume anyone was trans either, I'd read others say it. The fact then that lots of people seem to hate the idea (and not for the reasons I just mentioned), and then she isn't even trans is fucking ridiculous

 

[Indie]

I do, sadly, agree with you about the gay characters and appearing "woke". It feels like a horrible lazy thing to say and as a gay man I should be happy of its representation, but something about it screams of the equivalent of the Tories putting a LGBT person front and centre - basically for every purpose except actually believing in it. However that might rather harsh, as I can certainly see how Ellie could be a lesbian and it feeling "organic".

Isn't it a bit damned if you do and damned if you don't? Games developers for years have been critised for having male dominated action figures. You put in a female, gay character and it gets critisied for being woke/token/inorganic. At least they've had the balls for giving it a go.

I think primarily the critisism from user scores is defined around that point anyway. Keyboard warriors want to be keyboard warriors and it's probably the biggest release of the year, so undoubtably it gets targeted.

Around the articles peekaboo shared - i get it, but as RoM noted they're kind of missing the point. This game is linear, and there are no real choices. It's up to the user to deside the morality of it all and it *is* a horror game. I suspect that, as this article states: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/business/last-of-us-2-review.html it'll leave me feeling a little damaged. But that's fine, it's probably the point. A linear game is effectively no different from a TV show or movie - something like "The Road" or an episode of Black Mirror (and they've damaged me at times too).

Could there be a version of this game where the character learns and evolves from their mistakes? Sure. Is it a missed opportunity? Maybe. Does it really matter? No. As long as the game plays well and provides entertainment.

Will anyone pick up a gun and start murdering innocents from this? Who knows. It's entirely possible. Those people are going to find triggers somewhere anyway.

 

[Indie]

I'm having horrible flashbacks to a part in the first game where i kept getting killed by a giant fungus-head whilst trying to unlock a door. I suspect it'll take a me a few days to build to up playing it

 

[Raining on Me]

Isn't it a bit damned if you do and damned if you don't? Games developers for years have been critised for having male dominated action figures. You put in a female, gay character and it gets critisied for being woke/token/inorganic. At least they've had the balls for giving it a go.

No you're right, I mean on balance it's the right move. Of course it is. I suppose it's hard not to be cynical for intentions - e.g the eyes on the $$$ rather than a core belief within the team. But maybe comparing Naughty Dog to the tories is a BIT 'ARSH

 

[Indie]

No you're right, I mean on balance it's the right move. Of course it is. I suppose it's hard not to be cynical for intentions - e.g the eyes on the $$$ rather than a core belief within the team. But maybe comparing Naughty Dog to the tories is a BIT 'ARSH

it MAY WELL BE a cynical move. But the alternative isn't much better.

 

[Peekaboo]

I mean you could put an uncompromising group of lesbian designers in charge of making this game and see the direction they would take it in. I'm pretty sure it WOULDN'T BE what you're seeing right now. Now THAT's an alternative!

 

[Peekaboo]

Problem is, the vast majority of gamers who these games appeal to would not want to play that.