Edward Colston and the removal of racist statues

Tetris-Rock

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I normally don't engage in discussions on here because my English isn't good enough for that. But what made me critical of the movement is when I spoke to a black gay patient I met a few weeks back. We as white people don't know what it's like to be gay in the black community. The hostility is off the scale. That's why I'm torn when campaigning for a community in which homophobia is so rampant. I'm missing this completely in the debate, at least over here. Doesn't anybody else find this difficult?

It's difficult to level with but I think the key point is that the human rights of black people don't deserve to be taken for granted, regardless of their beliefs. There are also plenty of non-homophobes and, as you mention, black people from the LGBT community who are particularly vulnerable.

This is potentially false equivalence but I kind of see it a bit like the true story that is the basis for the film "Pride" (BEAR WITH ME HERE :D). Basically, as an LGBT activist, Mark Ashton empathised with the miners because he saw that they were getting different shit from the same people. Lesbians and Gays Support The Miners raised money to support the miners, and continued to do so despite initially being met with homophobic hostility from SOME of the miners. Later on, the National Union of Miners had our back and block voted to support the rights of gays and lesbians at work. I'm not saying that we need to WIN OVER homophobes in the black community but solidarity is a good thing that can bring people together.

Christ, I sound like OWEN JONES or something.
 

Cécile

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It's difficult to level with but I think the key point is that the human rights of black people don't deserve to be taken for granted, regardless of their beliefs. There are also plenty of non-homophobes and, as you mention, black people from the LGBT community who are particularly vulnerable.

This is potentially false equivalence but I kind of see it a bit like the true story that is the basis for the film "Pride" (BEAR WITH ME HERE :D). Basically, as an LGBT activist, Mark Ashton empathised with the miners because he saw that they were getting different shit from the same people. Lesbians and Gays Support The Miners raised money to support the miners, and continued to do so despite initially being met with homophobic hostility from SOME of the miners. Later on, the National Union of Miners had our back and block voted to support the rights of gays and lesbians at work. I'm not saying that we need to WIN OVER homophobes in the black community but solidarity is a good thing that can bring people together.

Christ, I sound like OWEN JONES or something.
Owen Jones or not you raise a very interesting point and give something to think about.
 

octophone

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I've seen people pushing the 'be careful of BLM and their goals' stuff on Twitter - of the accounts I've seen, a quick look at their other posts confirms what I assumed, that they're racists.

I have seen few people who I don't believe are racist pausing for thought re: the defunding and abolition of the police and of carceral justice systems. That's a massive step for a lot of British people to comprehend, such is the social/procedural status of the police.
 

jivafox

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An old work colleague of mine said she knew I was passionate about BLM but she was concerned as it seems like “communism with different objectives” :D
 

RaspberrySwirl

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Most movements contain elements of extremism and the likes, but the main point here is to stand with the BLM movement and support their basic rights.
 

RaspberrySwirl

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Now back to the statue discussion; I think some of these activists have gone too far. Removing statues of prmoninet slavers that were defined by slavery is essential and should’ve been done decades ago...


...but to suddenly demand that anyone that is from a certain era because they happened to have different views from what is acceptable today is just wrong. Not because these statues hold any value, but because we can’t just wipe out things we don’t like and judge the past by our current standards.

Mostly basing this on the ridiculous thing that some people here demand the removal of a statue of Carl von Linné, one of the most famous botanist...he classified plants and were behind som racial classifications/studies. His statue is about his role in botany.
 

jivafox

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I didn’t see anybody defending The Little Mermaid this much and she was having her head lopped off every other week JUST SAYING.
 

RaspberrySwirl

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I’m sure someone would find a lot of things H C Andersen thought or did to justify her beheading.
 

dmlaw

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I didn’t see anybody defending The Little Mermaid this much and she was having her head lopped off every other week JUST SAYING.
You have to remember that The Little Mermaid is a person of colour now. If she was still ginger, they would be a lot keener to protect her statue.
 

Ag

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I was chatting to my boomer parents today who although were a little iffy on statue removal (they concluded they should be removed but be put in museums) surprised me by their dislike of Churchill.

My mother said Churchill reminded her of Boris "full of big statements but nothing of consequence".

They constantly surprise me.
 

win_the_game

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The BBC are now reporting it could be an unfortunate case of cleaning gone wrong.

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Police investigating the damage to a statue of a Jamaican poet in Bristol have released an image of a man they want to talk to.

Avon and Somerset police were told an unknown substance had been applied to the bust of Alfred Fagon on 11 June.

Concerns were raised it may have been vandalised after the toppling of the Edward Colston statue during the Black Lives Matter protest days earlier. But some witnesses believed it was an attempt to clean the bust. The image shows a man standing on a stool to reach the statue.

Bristol City Council has declined to provide any details on how the statue has been damaged due to the police investigation. A council spokesperson added: "Bristol City Council officers are working to restore the Alfred Fagon statue as soon as possible."

The monument to Alfred Fagon in St Pauls, Bristol, was erected in 1987 on the first anniversary of his death. Mr Fagon was the first black person to have a statue in their honour in the city.
 

lolly

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The BBC are now reporting it could be an unfortunate case of cleaning gone wrong.
I did see that (but without the photo) mooted at the time in a social media post, but nothing became of it.

I hope it's true, even if the attempt was misguided. I love the idea of living in a city where the statue of a slave trader was toppled, and where the first statue of POC was cleaned by a random person a few days later.
 

FetchFugly

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There was an extended piece on the Channel 4 news about that this evening, and how closely the subject worked with the sculptor. Very good.
 

lolly

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It's resin, and I think only temporary, or at least intended to be right now. The mayor has stated whatever is put there permanently has to be democratically decided. I do wonder if that plinth will be seen as too contentious for such a strong political statement. There was a mannequin of Jimmy Savile there earlier this week!

At present I'm viewing it as a piece of transient street art, and hoping that it may gain some kind of permanence.
 

lolly

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I had an email before 7am stating it had been removed. I hope it goes to the museum alongside Colston.
 

lolly

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Four people 'could be' charged with criminal damage regarding the toppling of the statue. The matter is now in the hands of the CPS.

Five more people have been offered a conditional caution for their part.

The conditions of the caution are:

  • To complete a questionnaire from the History Commission set up by Bristol City Council, in which they can set out their reasons for their actions, as well as their concerns and thoughts going forward.
  • To pay a fine of £100 which will be collected by the courts service and sent to Nilaari, a charity based on Stapleton Road that supports BAME communities.
  • To take part in two hours of environmental improvement works – such as the removal of rubbish and graffiti – arranged and supervised by Bristol City Council.
 

octophone

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What a peculiar way to try and force people to participate in what could be a valuable exercise. Of course, if their questionnaires are published, the Gammons will be all over them.
 

lolly

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The new name for the Colston Hall has been announced.

"Bristol Beacon"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-54240812

Anyone want to tell them that the BNP's first even elected councillor was called Derek Beacon?

AMAZING

I've not read anything other than a tweet announcing it, but I will be doing a deeper dive (including into the comments) later.

I'm just glad it didn't get a corporate sponsorship name.
 

octophone

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I'm just glad it didn't get a corporate sponsorship name.

I know - I hate that everything's the O2 something...the enormodome in Victoria where my dad lives is called the "Save-On-Foods Arena".

How far can we really be from Poundland Stadium?
 

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