George Floyd and the police brutality debate

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RaspberrySwirl said:
Agreed, but what I’m trying to say is that it just so happens that currently (and for the past couple of centuries) ”white culture” is on top of the chain and therefore it is uphold as the perfect way of living, all other cultures are deemed as inferior. The optics make it a more obvious racial issue, but is not a big part of it a class and cultural thing?
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In some aspects of the issue I mentioned, there is definitely an intersection with class but not all. You are right that it is a cultural issue, but remains about race when the boundaries are drawn down racial lines.
 
Now it might have sounded like I’m denying the existence of racism, but what I’m trying to get at is that the issue is not the ”white race” per se; ultimately it’s this ugly part of human (animal?) nature where we want to dominate others. White people need to acknowledge their current privileges and the power they have over people of colour (that dog lady/bird watcher case is a prime example of that) but sometimes these discussions end up sounding like whatever you do you’re a racist unless you’re poc and have experienced racism, and I’m not sure that is helpful way of solving this issue and making white people coming around.
 
Dark Carnival said:
This is still very present in the form of 'no black no asian' in the gay community.
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I’m not trying to compare (ok I am) but where I live, which is predominantly black, I see a lot of people say ‘BLACK ONLY’ or ‘no whites’ (and it’s far in excess of the number of people I see saying no blacks/Asians - potentially because the area has fewer white people, I don’t know).

Anyway: Is that regarded as ok? Genuine question. I’m not trying to judge either way - just wondered what your opinion is on it.
 
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Sorry / I just posted this before I read the last two pages... I have a feeling it might have been answered! Reading now!
 
cwej said:
I’m not trying to compare (ok I am) but where I live, which is predominantly black, I see a lot of people say ‘BLACK ONLY’ or ‘no whites’ (and it’s far in excess of the number of people I see saying no blacks/Asians - potentially because the area has fewer white people, I don’t know).

Anyway: Is that regarded as ok? Genuine question. I’m not trying to judge either way - just wondered what your opinion is on it.
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I’d say it’s not okay because of the reason COB mentioned earlier (regardless of the race in question).

On the other hand, our sexual preferences are usually beyond our control and come from more primitive parts of ourselves where you can’t apply political correctness, regardless of how progressive or open minded you are. I guess the trick is to acknowledge it without communicating it in a way that comes off as racist or misogynistic etc...(don’t know how though).
 
when i used to date, i'd talk to guys about how our sexual preferences are totally colonised and they'd get very angry and block me. but that shit is true, loves.

and its because they're totally colonised (i recognise my own struggles to break free from them), and sites of pain for many poc, i can understand those who decide the only way to avoid it is to date people from the same race. yet, though it might minimise the racial microaggressions, it doesn't get rid of them totally. we are all still living in a world where whiteness has currency in multiple realms - sexual, political, cultural
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
but sometimes these discussions end up sounding like whatever you do you’re a racist unless you’re poc and have experienced racism, and I’m not sure that is helpful way of solving this issue and making white people coming around.
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I think as white people we have a tendency to get hung up on being called racist. As white people, we almost definitely have unconscious racist biases or at the very least benefit from the existence of structural racism. I think it is hard but necessary to admit that.

This is what black people mean when they say that white people have to be actively antiracist. Not being actively racist isn’t really good enough - to be antiracist, you have to admit the above and take active steps to address those issues in yourself, in others and in society. This doesn’t mean placard-waving necessarily, but stuff like not being afraid to call out other gays for their racist behaviour.
 
Tetris-Rock said:
I think as white people we have a tendency to get hung up on being called racist. As white people, we almost definitely have unconscious racist biases or at the very least benefit from the existence of structural racism. I think it is hard but necessary to admit that.

This is what black people mean when they say that white people have to be actively antiracist. Not being actively racist isn’t really good enough - to be antiracist, you have to admit the above and take active steps to address those issues in yourself, in others and in society. This doesn’t mean placard-waving necessarily, but stuff like not being afraid to call out other gays for their racist behaviour.
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Yes, but how do you prove or show your active anti-racism? I know it’s a fine line and a lot of well-meaning white people end up sounding patronizing, or being accused of cultural appropriation if the try hard, and if not, they’re accused of being passive.
 
cwej said:
I’m not trying to compare (ok I am) but where I live, which is predominantly black, I see a lot of people say ‘BLACK ONLY’ or ‘no whites’ (and it’s far in excess of the number of people I see saying no blacks/Asians - potentially because the area has fewer white people, I don’t know).

Anyway: Is that regarded as ok? Genuine question. I’m not trying to judge either way - just wondered what your opinion is on it.
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That is ok, in the same way oppressed minorities have the right to hold non-mixed events because that creates a safe space for them. It’s perfectly fine for minorities to seek someone from their (or heck a different) minority. We the LGBT like having our night clubs, sports clubs, events etc. where the public is predominately LGBT and that is ok. Whereas excluding us from a non LGBT club is not ok.
 
Beverley said:
when i used to date, i'd talk to guys about how our sexual preferences are totally colonised and they'd get very angry and block me. but that shit is true, loves.

and its because they're totally colonised (i recognise my own struggles to break free from them), and sites of pain for many poc, i can understand those who decide the only way to avoid it is to date people from the same race. yet, though it might minimise the racial microaggressions, it doesn't get rid of them totally. we are all still living in a world where whiteness has currency in multiple realms - sexual, political, cultural
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And where do the millions of Arabs and East Asians that don’t like balcks or south Asians fall into that? Are we blaming European colonization on that as well?
 
Dark Carnival said:
That is ok, in the same way oppressed minorities have the right to hold non-mixed events because that creates a safe space for them. It’s perfectly fine for minorities to seek someone from their (or heck a different) minority. We the LGBT like having our night clubs, sports clubs, events etc. where the public is predominately LGBT and that is ok. Whereas excluding us from a non LGBT club is not ok.
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So would a white-only gay party in South Africa be okay?
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
On the other hand, our sexual preferences are usually beyond our control and come from more primitive parts of ourselves where you can’t apply political correctness, regardless of how progressive or open minded you are. I guess the trick is to acknowledge it without communicating it in a way that comes off as racist or misogynistic etc...(don’t know how though).
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To a degree, this is correct. It really isn’t hard not to be racist and misogynistic.

But there is also a bit of introspection to be done about why all of us have these preferences in the first place. There is definitely an element of conditioning to western beauty standards (which i’ll admit is difficult to shift) but I think the power of racial stereotypes also plays a significant role, particularly in online dating or hookup spaces where we’re learning very little about a person and essentially filling in the gaps (:ken:) ourselves.
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
And where do the millions of Arabs and East Asians that don’t like balcks or south Asians fall into that? Are we blaming European colonization on that as well?
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well there is a difference between racism and colourism, even if they inform and reinforce one another in the modern day. racism is derived from the enlightenment. anti-blackness is derived from the enlightenment. colourism isn't totally derived from it. non-Black communities of colour need to do their own work too - I referenced that a bit last night - to dismantle their contempt of black people, but also to dismantle the colourism that exists where the fairer skinned you are, the higher your status.
 
Tetris-Rock said:
To a degree, this is correct. It really isn’t hard not to be racist and misogynistic.

But there is also a bit of introspection to be done about why all of us have these preferences in the first place. There is definitely an element of conditioning to western beauty standards (which i’ll admit is difficult to shift) but I think the power of racial stereotypes also plays a significant role, particularly in online dating or hookup spaces where we’re learning very little about a person and essentially filling in the gaps (:ken:) ourselves.
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But drawn to the extreme this could mean that we chose to be homosexuals.
 
Beverley said:
well there is a difference between racism and colourism, even if they inform and reinforce one another in the modern day. racism is derived from the enlightenment. anti-blackness is derived from the enlightenment. colourism isn't totally derived from it. non-Black communities of colour need to do their own work too - I referenced that a bit last night - to dismantle their contempt of black people, but also to dismantle the colourism that exists where the fairer skinned you are, the higher your status.
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So you mean racisim didn’t exist prior to the Enlightment?
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
Yes, but how do you prove or show your active anti-racism? I know it’s a fine line and a lot of well-meaning white people end up sounding patronizing, or being accused of cultural appropriation if the try hard, and if not, they’re accused of being passive.
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I would say just by not staying silent and literally trying to do something useful. We won’t always get it right but no-one is an expert at anything to begin with. Listen to what black people are asking white people to do is a good starting point.
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
But drawn to the extreme this could mean that we chose to be homosexuals.
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I don’t think this is a fair comparison at all. Sexuality is 100% innate and not in any respect learned. Which is why we are all gay despite the fact growing up in a heteronormative society.
 
Beverley said:
I'm saying that racism is based on historic constructions of race, and those constructions come from the European Enlightenment. Read about it, sis!
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But that doesn’t take all the other racism that doesn’t fall under the European Enlightment.
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
But that doesn’t take all the other racism that doesn’t fall under the European Enlightment.
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You have to understand the history of particular terminology. When the entire concept of race was created by Enlightenment intellectuals to assert the supremacy of the white race over the rest of the world, you have to understand that it might not be the best term to discuss prejudice that pre-existed it. This is why lots of activists talk about racism in terms of prejudice + systemic power/privilege. In plenty of non-Western scenarios, the term applies, e.g. the racism in the Middle East, but i'm not sure how to talk of relations between communities before colonisation, and also, i don't know enough about it.
 
New topic here if one of the LOVELY AND APPRECIATED mods could move the last few posts over?

https://www.moopy.co.uk/threads/sexuality-nature-vs-nurture.99081/
 
Tetris-Rock said:
I think as white people we have a tendency to get hung up on being called racist.
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White person’s perspective (for the sake of open and honest discussion): most white people seem to see it as a pretty heavy term to be throwing around. Perhaps we need additional words, because the ‘woke’ definition of racism (benefiting from the deeply ingrained racial inequality in our society, having unconscious racial biases etc) is quite different to the ‘classical’ definition (racial hatred, belief in racial superiority) and people just hear it as the second type and the conversation turns to “why are you calling me horrible names and accusing me of [hatred etc]” instead of “what can I do to help and become more conscious of my privilege”

I’m not trying to “tone police” and I know it’s not our place to tell POC what terminology to use and sympathy towards offended white people is probably quite..... limited. But I honestly wonder if conversations could move on from people getting hung up about being called racist, if lighter terminology was used (until they prove they deserve strong terminology, at least) as it’s going to be a lot easier than trying to get the masses to agree to new definitions.

It’s why I think people say “I’m not racist but...” - they genuinely don’t hate POC or think they’re superior to them, but are ignorant enough about the issues to start spouting a bunch of racially problematic hot takes and microagresssions regardless.
 
Beverley said:
You have to understand the history of particular terminology. When the entire concept of race was created by Enlightenment intellectuals to assert the supremacy of the white race over the rest of the world, you have to understand that it might not be the best term to discuss prejudice that pre-existed it. This is why lots of activists talk about racism in terms of prejudice + systemic power/privilege. In plenty of non-Western scenarios, the term applies, e.g. the racism in the Middle East, but i'm not sure how to talk of relations between communities before colonisation, and also, i don't know enough about it.
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Ok fine, but regardless of what scientific term the phenomenon has; do we only want to target and discuss racial discrimination caused by the Enlightment (because it better suits the narrative, in this case the sexual preference issue we were talking about) or should we not include the whole spectrum to better understand the problem?
 
Fuuuuucking Hell:



Nothing this young person did can justify that. The way he's throwing them around, if their head kits the kerb or something, it could be fatal.
(Edit: the poster followed up saying they misgendered the child... I'll just neutralise...)
 
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That one has been doing the rounds for a while. Doesn’t make it any less shocking each time I see it.

On a lighter note, another idiot:

 


I wonder when they realised this was a bad idea? I’m betting two seconds into the first call.
 
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