Reclaim The Night Protests

octophone

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It's the fact that it was all peaceful while Kate Middleton was wandering about and then, as soon as it got dark, they couldn't help themselves. Imagine three of you having a woman of 5ft 2 on the ground with your knee on her back because she lit a candle and stood quietly and thinking to yourself "good job, lads, good job". Fuck the police, fuck Priti Patel, fuck it all.
 

Beverley

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I think i'll stop here, because my spade is blunt and i'm half way to Australia. And I realise i'm sounding like white male guy.

I am totally supportive of BLM and of reclaim the night. Let's leave it at that.

Noooo, I think you're an important part of the conversation. And I think the conversation here is worthwhile, no? Interrogating our understanding of the event, where we portion responsibility for the fuckery etc.
 

Gangsta Nancy Lam

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It would be deeply ironic if a woman who has reached the top of the game, in a man's world, is forced to resign.

A very well-meaning and very right-on friend of mine was insisting that none of this would happen if there were women and people of colour calling the shots.

3500.jpg
 

cwej

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I hope women of colour, less attractive women, trans women who are murdered garner this much attention. They won't.

screenshot-2020-06-08-at-17.52.24.png


On this, these two women: Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman were murdered in my local park last summer. They too went missing for a couple of days before being found and they too were murdered by a stranger after dark. Further to that, a number of the police officers took inappropriate photos of the bodies which they shared amongst themselves... yet their story barely made a single headline.

anyone want to hazard a guess why?

I’m so angry at the way their lives have been given such a lower level of interest, despite so many of the facts being similar to Sarah’s story.

Anyway, the brutality was uncalled for obvs. The response from Patel as always is cuntery and I don’t even know what to say any more about the fact we continue to vote these people in. There are no words and I’m tired of repeating them.
 
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Kate

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I remember that story, yes, it disappeared from the news pretty quickly. Did the officers even lose their jobs in the end?!
 

vespertine

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Christ the UK police have always loved their fucking batons - it makes me SICK.

I'm happy the protests have been happening, sorry but sometimes you have to do a cost-benefit analysis and the chances of catching Covid outdoors are very slim, even when around others.
 

funky

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I hope women of colour, less attractive women, trans women who are murdered garner this much attention. They won't.

This has been my take on the whole thing which I haven't really been able to put into words or context without it being offensive. But when I saw a picture of that poor woman I just thought, people go missing / are murdered in London all the time (unfortunately/tragically) and it seems the only ones that the public/media ever want to put into any kind of campaign or narrative is the white blonde ladies with a nice smile. As much as I applaud what's come out of this, I can't help but feel why now? Would a black or asian woman being kidnapped on the streets of London had the same amount of publicity? Well it hasn't before, so why would I think it would.

On the subject of the protests/vigils, I just think the police are in a horrible fucking position. I have no time for Boris or Priti and I don't know much about the Head of the Met lady, but the individual police are just doing their job, a very thankless one at that. It looked very heavy handed to me, but how do you enforce rules that are very very important right now? What message does it send if you just let people meet in crowds when there's a lockdown on? People have missed funerals for relatives because of the pandemic, so strangers meeting in a public place to make a political statement can surely wait?

I don't think there's a right answer, just my thoughts that can be summarised the fact that, again, everything is a bit of a fucking mess right now.
 

funky

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The thing, for me, is that people choose to be police officers, but they don’t choose to be women or people of color or any other group that is being marginalized

That's a very good point, but they don't choose the jobs they are given to do when it comes to enforcing the law. We should blame the people making decisions if they are indeed the wrong ones.

I also think that when it comes to protesting anything, the visuals are as important as anything else. It's all about PR and shaping the message. And I think that the protestors are walking a fine line with this one. It hasn't been thought through. They will have a lot of support for the cause, but will also alienate a lot of people who think, yes it's an important cause, but not today. Or not in the way you're doing it.

I don't know which way I lean I'm just trying to look at it objectively.
 
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RJN

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The PR argument is difficult because you’re right that it probably does look bad to an extent to protest during a lockdown but it seems like the right wing (and I know this doesn’t include you at all) seems unable to argue in good faith about this at all, so when is the right time?

This is all from an American perspective, but it seems to apply here too
 

funky

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The PR argument is difficult because you’re right that it probably does look bad to an extent to protest during a lockdown but it seems like the right wing (and I know this doesn’t include you at all) seems unable to argue in good faith about this at all, so when is the right time?

This is all from an American perspective, but it seems to apply here too

yeah there isn't much difference tbh. We are your older cousin who pretends to be more sensible but actually is just as fucked up.

I haven't heard the right wing argument because at this point I just ignore that shit, echo chambers be damned. I just can't with those people anymore. It's funny when it's Trump but regular people just being outright offensive just upsets me and I'm taking care of me from now on thankyouverymuch. But I do believe, and STRIKE ME DOWN if this doesn't just make me sound just as bad, but I DO think that there are people on the left who like to make these things about themselves. The any excuse for a protest lot. And they just fucking ruin it for everyone. Now I haven't seen much of these protests and the famous bit with the woman pinned to the ground looking terrified was truly horrific, and it does seem like she went with honest intentions and had no idea it would lead to that. But there simply is a small bunch of hard left people who, like the hard right, just make everything SO FUCKING DIFFICULT and far worse than it needed to be. I might be wrong in this instance, but that's usually what happens here. Maybe it;s because I lived through the London riots. The left are not a straight walk in the park by any means. But maybe I'm going off topic. I honestly haven't read enough about this incident to be right OR wrong on it.
 

Beverley

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yeah there isn't much difference tbh. We are your older cousin who pretends to be more sensible but actually is just as fucked up.

I haven't heard the right wing argument because at this point I just ignore that shit, echo chambers be damned. I just can't with those people anymore. It's funny when it's Trump but regular people just being outright offensive just upsets me and I'm taking care of me from now on thankyouverymuch. But I do believe, and STRIKE ME DOWN if this doesn't just make me sound just as bad, but I DO think that there are people on the left who like to make these things about themselves. The any excuse for a protest lot. And they just fucking ruin it for everyone. Now I haven't seen much of these protests and the famous bit with the woman pinned to the ground looking terrified was truly horrific, and it does seem like she went with honest intentions and had no idea it would lead to that. But there simply is a small bunch of hard left people who, like the hard right, just make everything SO FUCKING DIFFICULT and far worse than it needed to be. I might be wrong in this instance, but that's usually what happens here. Maybe it;s because I lived through the London riots. The left are not a straight walk in the park by any means. But maybe I'm going off topic. I honestly haven't read enough about this incident to be right OR wrong on it.

Funky, who is the supposed 'hard left' in this instance and what did they apparently do that was so bad?
 

funky

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I didn't say in this instance, I was relating back to how optics are important in protests and this could be a possibility. I specifically said I don't know enough about this particular incident to know what's right or wrong.
 

Beverley

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I don't think that optics are important at all, funkelita. The civil rights movement didn't happen cos the optics were good. On all accounts those people were maligned and misrepresented in the media cos nobody ever wants to give an inch. And all the good white folk agreed with them.
 

funky

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Fair enough. Those instances didn't happen in the age of social media though. And I'm just sick of reading about things that are then inevitably divided into shouting matches online, and the media throwing petrol on with clickbait images and language. Which isn't really about this at all, I'm just in a negative space atm and I'm wondering out loud.
 

Beverley

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Fair enough. Those instances didn't happen in the age of social media though. And I'm just sick of reading about things that are then inevitably divided into shouting matches online, and the media throwing petrol on with clickbait images and language. Which isn't really about this at all, I'm just in a negative space atm and I'm wondering out loud.

I hear you, sis. I think we're all struggling with how to respond and create social change in this particular era. But I just think we should be careful about ascribing some mythical failure to the 'hard left' (whoever they are) out of a desire to be fair and even-handed about this.
 
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Indie

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As an aside (and not entirely unexpected for someone from a small city where are two degrees of seperation between everyone), one of my best friends knew Sarah. Which does make this particular incident a bit more poignant for me.
 

Soldi

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As an aside (and not entirely unexpected for someone from a small city where are two degrees of seperation between everyone), one of my best friends knew Sarah. Which does make this particular incident a bit more poignant for me.
-
 
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funky

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I hear you, sis. I think we're all struggling with how to respond and create social change in this particular era. But I just think we should be careful about ascribing some mythical failure to the 'hard left' (whoever they are) put of a desire to be fair and even-handed about this.

I guess I'm trying to be balanced (and failing, because I agree with what you're saying) because I instinctively want all of these things to be better and for things to be progressive and be fairer and peaceful and I'm sick of Mr and Mrs Johnny opinion fighting about it from their sofa all the time. They're not the ones being killed, tortured, injured, protesting, trying to enforce the law, they're just doubling down on their correctness and rightness and refusing to see any other side. I get that you can't be balanced about these things- you have to push for change and it's not pretty. I just don't know how to escape the verbiage and the hostility and it's wearing me down. The covid bubble hasn't helped and I don't think moving back to Liverpool at the same time has helped either - people here aren't so much racist and ignorant as they are just plain sheltered. They have no idea what people are really going through. I'm hardly the wokest person at the table but sometimes I just want to scream and tell people to wake the fuck up.
 

Beverley

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I guess I'm trying to be balanced (and failing, because I agree with what you're saying) because I instinctively want all of these things to be better and for things to be progressive and be fairer and peaceful and I'm sick of Mr and Mrs Johnny opinion fighting about it from their sofa all the time. They're not the ones being killed, tortured, injured, protesting, trying to enforce the law, they're just doubling down on their correctness and rightness and refusing to see any other side. I get that you can't be balanced about these things- you have to push for change and it's not pretty. I just don't know how to escape the verbiage and the hostility and it's wearing me down. The covid bubble hasn't helped and I don't think moving back to Liverpool at the same time has helped either - people here aren't so much racist and ignorant as they are just plain sheltered. They have no idea what people are really going through. I'm hardly the wokest person at the table but sometimes I just want to scream and tell people to wake the fuck up.

I totally get it. Since the referendum, I don't think that any of us can ignore how great the divisions are in this country, and that we might be continuing to move wider apart. I strongly recommend you watch the latest Adam Curtis docs because they're really illuminating about what we are at in this moment. And if anything, while they make me angry and despondent, I still have empathy with the people that, in Liberal circles, we're encouraged to despise.

I think the answer is three-fold tho: 1. We gotta keep doing the work, 2. We gotta build coalitions and help people from different communities to understand we're all in this together, 3. We gotta understand that centrism really isn't the answer to social justice issues. And I read your posts and believe that you know this, and secretly want to come on over to the left. :disco:
 

cwej

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The thing, for me, is that people choose to be police officers, but they don’t choose to be women or people of color or any other group that is being marginalized

Well yes... but if NONE of them chose to be a police officer we'd be in a pretty fucked position too... We do NEED them.
 

cwej

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Picture sorted now.


Both attractive women in their own right (if we really have to go down that route of caring more about pretty people :manson: and to answer @Kate's following question - suspended, but don't think they ended up losing their jobs... HOW was that not front page news for weeks like this one, in a world where BLM was what was being protested in 2020?!?
 

RJN

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Well yes... but if NONE of them chose to be a police officer we'd be in a pretty fucked position too... We do NEED them.

well yes, I agree that somebody needs to be enforcing laws, but when they’re part of a group that has been doing it in an unjust way, and they are choosing to be part of the group, than people feeling negatively towards them makes sense. I don’t know what the answer is, but the way policing is happening now doesn’t make sense or work
 

Beverley

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Well yes... but if NONE of them chose to be a police officer we'd be in a pretty fucked position too... We do NEED them.

But here, as with the BLM protests, there is an opportunity for us to learn that we don't NEED the police. There are other options, those have been articulated by activists and academics, it's our job to do the werq and engage with them.
 
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funky

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I totally get it. Since the referendum, I don't think that any of us can ignore how great the divisions are in this country, and that we might be continuing to move wider apart. I strongly recommend you watch the latest Adam Curtis docs because they're really illuminating about what we are at in this moment. And if anything, while they make me angry and despondent, I still have empathy with the people that, in Liberal circles, we're encouraged to despise.

I think the answer is three-fold tho: 1. We gotta keep doing the work, 2. We gotta build coalitions and help people from different communities to understand we're all in this together, 3. We gotta understand that centrism really isn't the answer to social justice issues. And I read your posts and believe that you know this, and secretly want to come on over to the left. :disco:

I am on the left. I just try to do it with an open mind to the opposing views. I try to understand where the other side comes from, if for no other reason than to NOT be like all the people who are so sure of their rightness. I don't think I'm centrist in that respect. I agree with you about coalitions but sometimes that involves working with people that you may not agree with on other things. A lot of people are happy to alienate themselves from anyone who doesn't agree with them, and agressive for the sake of aggression. I just find this upsetting. Not annoying, just sad. The divisions in this country are entirely fixable - most people just don't want to or can't be arsed. I don't think any of this should ever get in the way of progress though. I'm sure of that.
 

Lucille

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I see we’ve gone for the full Trump playbook and they’re now claiming BLM, XR, and even ANTIFA (!) infiltrated the protests.
 

COB

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Anything to deflect from the police being in the wrong, I suppose :rolleyes:
 

octophone

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I see we’ve gone for the full Trump playbook and they’re now claiming BLM, XR, and even ANTIFA (!) infiltrated the protests.

Or, to put it another way, there were black women at the vigil and a few that looked a bit hippyish.

Also: note the implication that you can't support BLM and want a safe world for women...you must be an infiltrator. :manson:
 

Beverley

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I am on the left. I just try to do it with an open mind to the opposing views. I try to understand where the other side comes from, if for no other reason than to NOT be like all the people who are so sure of their rightness. I don't think I'm centrist in that respect. I agree with you about coalitions but sometimes that involves working with people that you may not agree with on other things. A lot of people are happy to alienate themselves from anyone who doesn't agree with them, and agressive for the sake of aggression. I just find this upsetting. Not annoying, just sad. The divisions in this country are entirely fixable - most people just don't want to or can't be arsed. I don't think any of this should ever get in the way of progress though. I'm sure of that.

And all this means what, exactly? The actual left is way more versed in coalition building and working with people who don't share their views than the right. Give me one example of coalition building on the right, or where the right have ceded ground on anything? I think these ideas about aggression and disagreements are overblown, because really, the issue of leftist politics is the solidarity that once existed has been dismantled by the right and its attacks on unions etc. And its a problem that white folk expect minorities to take positions that go against their interests for the sake of the common good - see Keir Starmer. Also, the problem is that both-sides-ing this whole debate is never going to work - its never going to make lasting social justice changes.

And if you think that the divisions in this country haven't always existed in some form, and that they are easy to heal, I think you're wrong.
 

Beverley

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Also, I don't wanna hear people on this forum talking about how we need the police. The resources are out there! Do the work! And if you disagree with the alternatives, actually say why FFS!
 
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