Leaving Neverland

Mugatu said:
You have to wonder, what does Rita know? :(

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OMG is that Club 96?
 
Haven't watched it, won't watch it but those who did watch it in my work are being pretty dismissive of the allegations in the programme.

Put it this way, talk very swiftly moved on to the impending McCann documentary.
 
That was difficult to watch although it didn’t really add anything new. I think most people accept he was a fucking oddball and most likely a dirty nonce who hid it in plain sight.
 
I don't know how ANYONE can watch this and completely dismiss the allegations.

If they're lying then they both, especially Jimmy, deserve an Oscar. It's the little things, body language, shaking, the look in their eyes, facial expressions, these things are very hard to control. The way they described things is classic grooming, it does not sound like something someone just made up. It's too detailed.

Why is it so easy to accept allegations about other celebrities but not with Michael? The 7 hour phone calls, the faxes, the fake marriage, the sleeping naked in bed with kids, one of whom for a WHOLE YEAR, dropping them as soon as they hit puberty, the bells on the doors, the secret bedrooms, the absolute TON of porn found in Neverland - photobooks of naked boys written by convicted paedophiles, photos of naked men with cut out faces of young boys stuck over them - his fans say he is innocent - even if there was no sex then this is still very wrong and in appropriate behaviour.

One thing I also have seen is criticism of the parents. Sure, they made mistake, but they were totally groomed too and were taken in by Michael - this wasn't something that happened overnight, he wormed his way into their affections so he was like one of the family. And I've also seen comments about the mothers smiling and laughing. All I can say is that when one of my friends died when I was 14, when I told another friend about it, I started laughing. I don't know why, I was very upset, but I had a massive smile on my face when telling her.

Also, to those who mocked me when I said his music could have been about his behaviour with the kids - his whole life revolved around spending all his time with young boys, which he brazenly displayed in the media. I don't think it's too hard to believe that some of this would have been in his mind when he was writing songs. Just read the words to the spoken intro to I Just Can't Stop Loving You.

I think this could just be the very beginning.
 
Kalabaliken said:
Also, to those who mocked me when I said his music could have been about his behaviour with the kids - his whole life revolved around spending all his time with young boys, which he brazenly displayed in the media. I don't think it's too hard to believe that some of this would have been in his mind when he was writing songs. Just read the words to the spoken intro to I Just Can't Stop Loving You.
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SERIOUSLY, JUST STOP NOW :D
 
Sheena said:
SERIOUSLY, JUST STOP NOW :D
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I don't know what you find so funny in this at all. It's hardly a laughing matter. It seems he was a very calculated, devious and completely fucked up person. I know you were a fan of his music but do you really believe that if these allegations are true that he was able to completely separate his personal life from his musical career? People write songs about their personal experiences, hopes, dreams, fears, both deliberately and subconsciously. It might not have been deliberate, but you cannot deny it's a bit creepy.
 
Sorry Kala, I don't think anyone is mocking your opinions, but the closet comment was just very funny. It's the way you tell 'em.
 
Just want to clarify that I was just reporting the reactions in my workplace. I didn't read the rest of the thread but I thought, given some of the reactions I had seen online, that this was of interest.

No offence intended.
 
So I 'worked' from home today and watched the documentary in full.

It is really very disturbing and sick; and the 2 men offer no reason to disbelieve them - Safechuck in particular seems deeply damaged by his experience with Jackson
 
Kalabaliken said:
I don't know what you find so funny in this at all. It's hardly a laughing matter. It seems he was a very calculated, devious and completely fucked up person. I know you were a fan of his music but do you really believe that if these allegations are true that he was able to completely separate his personal life from his musical career? People write songs about their personal experiences, hopes, dreams, fears, both deliberately and subconsciously. It might not have been deliberate, but you cannot deny it's a bit creepy.
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I didn’t know the song enough to know the lyrics but I don’t think your In The Closet theory is that far fetched, unless I’m missing something.
 
Kalabaliken said:
I don't know what you find so funny in this at all. It's hardly a laughing matter. It seems he was a very calculated, devious and completely fucked up person. I know you were a fan of his music but do you really believe that if these allegations are true that he was able to completely separate his personal life from his musical career? People write songs about their personal experiences, hopes, dreams, fears, both deliberately and subconsciously. It might not have been deliberate, but you cannot deny it's a bit creepy.
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I’ve not once denied the allegations but I also haven’t seen the film. I’m also hardly a Michael Jackson superfan- I even said myself he was an obvious nonce.

But listen to yourself! What’s next? “Beat It” was a thinly veiled ode to encourage children to masturbate? He wrote “Dangerous” because he actually was?
 
Sheena said:
I’ve not once denied the allegations but I also haven’t seen the film. I’m also hardly a Michael Jackson superfan- I even said myself he was an obvious nonce.

But listen to yourself! What’s next? “Beat It” was a thinly veiled ode to encourage children to masturbate? He wrote “Dangerous” because he actually was?
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No - but when your whole life and persona is pretty much centred on spending as much time as possible with children, and doing fuck knows what he did with them, it's surely going to seep into his musical output. He flaunted his relationship with children in people's faces, and I think he got off on that, so I think it's not difficult to imagine he would do the same with his music. I don't think EVERY song is going to be about his relationship with kids, but I'm just saying that it could be possible. I could be making too much of it, of course.

On another note, I've read that some people say they can completely separate music from the person, but I disagree. I really do feel for a lot of his fans though, well, those who are not completely blind-sighted that is. If you've followed someone for over 30 years and have memories of their music, it must be a bitter pill to swallow.
 
Some of Wacko's lyrics are very retro-paedo though

'Ain't nobody's business

Ain't nobody's business

(The way you make me feel)

Ain't nobody's business

Ain't nobody's business

But mine and my baby

(You really turn me on)'
 
it's a difficult one for me, separating the art from the artist. i think a lot of brilliant minds are compromised in unexpected, sometimes unsavoury ways.

i can't be sure what truly happened but weighing all the information i believe the "victims" in this case. but i don't think i will stop listening to michael jackson. i've never been a loon but there is no denying he has created some of the best music ever. and where would i draw the line even if i decided to? would jackson 5 stuff be ok? would his earlier work be fine?

i feel truly sorry for these kids but i can't help feeling some compassion for him as well. he was a troubled man and i think it comes from the abuse he himself endured as a child and inability to cope with superstardom at such a young age.

power, fame and money corrupt so many mature individuals let alone children.

i tend to make excuses for abusers as i think a lot of them were victims before they became what they did. but yes, even if you're damaged i do think you should have the clarity and/or resolve to control yourself from passing abuse on and he clearly didn't.
 
TAKE AWAY my money
THROW AWAY my TIME
YOU can call me HONEY
But you AIN'T NO GOOD FOR ME

DANGEROUS

:disco:


Still my favourite MJ album?
 
Well I did my usual charity shop ward-round of a Saturday and I must say I found quite a few MJ CDs and DVDs...
 
Oh god I couldn’t even make it through the first episode in full :(
 
Ag said:
You're still playing this fucking CUNT?

CUNTS!
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MJ has a had a minor streaming and sales BOOST from the programme. Whatever else is going on with adverts on buses and whatnot, I find that totally unfathomable.

I can stand back a little from this because, firstly I genuinely do not own a single scrap of his music - I had some singles when I was 10-11, all in a pack, all on red vinyl. Xmas prezzie. I played some of them silly, others I didn't do so much with. But I parted with it decades ago. Secondly, coming from a standpoint where one should, as a first response, believe survivors and proceed from there, the sheer range of responses has been fascinating in how keen some people are to dismiss and discredit the whole thing (I mean, really, adverts?) and how equally keen some others are to have him deleted from the artistic role call and his catalogue rendered inaccessible.

The whole thing is utterly horrible and it feels like Savile but on a much greater scale. It was known, was the subject of discussion (and fuck knows how many jokes), was the subject of failed legal proceedings and so on. Everyone knew. No-one who was in for a share of the loot did anything.
 
octophone said:
MJ has a had a minor streaming and sales BOOST from the programme. Whatever else is going on with adverts on buses and whatnot, I find that totally unfathomable.
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I'm sure a lot of that is due to the fanbase though. I'd never underestimate that deluded lot.
 
lolly said:
I'm sure a lot of that is due to the fanbase though. I'd never underestimate that deluded lot.
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Oh, I know. I mean, I was worried when Mark E Smith died that it was going to come out that he was more than just a grumpy sod with a vicious tongue. I know that fandom can cloud judgement but surely not on that level.
 
octophone said:
Oh, I know. I mean, I was worried when Mark E Smith died that it was going to come out that he was more than just a grumpy sod with a vicious tongue. I know that fandom can cloud judgement but surely not on that level.
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We're not talking massive sales boosts though, are we? Considering the size of his fanbase I don't think it's unlikely.
 
No, it's not massive. On a scale of "appearing on The Voice" to "dead", it's about a "on the couch on Strictly Come Dancing - It Takes Two".
 
If I'm feeling up to it later, I may do another #mjinnocent search on Instagram. I love reading about how pure he was.
 
I watched the first part. Not sure if I can stomach watching part 2 to be honest. It's rather harrowing.
 
Are there any interviews with MJ loons doing the rounds? The only ones I’ve seen don’t really push them on anything and just allows them to say “looking at the FACTS he’s innocent” without really pushing them on things like him sleeping with kids quite openly.
 
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I don’t understand the argument about the facts

Is that just based on them defending him during his trials under oath?

Cause otherwise the facts are the man had slept with a lot of children
 
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