The Israel-Gaza War

Ooh - now I’m interested to know what’s so conspiratorial about the concern for Gaza civilians…. Could you expand on that?
 
funky said:
Ooh - now I’m interested to know what’s so conspiratorial about the concern for Gaza civilians…. Could you expand on that?
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I was, of course, and quite obviously, referring to the larger point of media culpability.

Please don’t misunderstand me.
 
And I’m quite obviously focused on whether those people inside that hospital will still be alive tomorrow, but I guess we all have things to focus on.
 
funky said:
And I’m quite obviously focused on whether those people inside that hospital will still be alive tomorrow, but I guess we all have things to focus on.
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Maybe I’m special but I’m able to hold separate, nuanced thoughts in my head at the same time.
 
gggggg said:
Maybe I’m special but I’m able to hold separate, nuanced thoughts in my head at the same time.
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Can you? Because you’ve not mentioned the Gaza civilians once. Feel free to share those separate thoughts and then we can get all nuanced about it.
 
Nothing personal here and I’m certainly not taking anything personal!

But surely the admins would agree that if someone pops in after months away and starts throwing around language like claptrap and disgraceful they kinda have to expect a little bit of a challenge.

I’m genuinely interested to understand opposing views. Thing is, I’m still waiting to hear one beyond “you’re all ignorant”
 
funky said:
Can you? Because you’ve not mentioned the Gaza civilians once. Feel free to share those separate thoughts and then we can get all nuanced about it.
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I’m not a monster. I’m not some pro Israeli government stooge. The situation is obviously appalling, the loss of life is dreadful and what those poor people must be going through is unconscionable.

Likewise the atrocities of October 7th truly shook me to my core, not only because I know the family of some victims, but the horror of it was unlike anything I’ve seen.

I feel Israel has the right to defend itself now and in the future, and needs to free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. Is its approach going too far? Yes.

Big picture - Hamas needs to either be demolished, or it needs to end its campaign to eliminate Israel from the map. It is a sovereign state that has the right to exist. Likewise, Palestine needs its own state outside of the control of Israel. A two state solution.

Okay?
 
I don’t think anyone inside these pages thinks that anyone inside these pages is a monster. But sometimes context is king. That would have made a better opener but I appreciate everyone’s tensions are running high right now.
 
funky said:
Nothing personal here and I’m certainly not taking anything personal!

But surely the admins would agree that if someone pops in after months away and starts throwing around language like claptrap and disgraceful they kinda have to expect a little bit of a challenge.

I’m genuinely interested to understand opposing views. Thing is, I’m still waiting to hear one beyond “you’re all ignorant”
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That’s not my point. Yes I expect to be challenged, so should others posting what I consider to be ridiculous stuff. In the previous thread I saw a very one sided conversation, with some very worrying things veering on anti-Jewish sentiment. I felt it right to interject.
 
I think it’s good to know what parts are considered anti Jewish because there’s no intent for that surely. It shouldn’t need to be emphasised that there’s a difference between being Jewish and being the Israeli Government. We’re all smarter than that.
 
gggggg said:
I’m not a monster. I’m not some pro Israeli government stooge. The situation is obviously appalling, the loss of life is dreadful and what those poor people must be going through is unconscionable.

Likewise the atrocities of October 7th truly shook me to my core, not only because I know the family of some victims, but the horror of it was unlike anything I’ve seen.

I feel Israel has the right to defend itself now and in the future, and needs to free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. Is its approach going too far? Yes.

Big picture - Hamas needs to either be demolished, or it needs to end its campaign to eliminate Israel from the map. It is a sovereign state that has the right to exist. Likewise, Palestine needs its own state outside of the control of Israel. A two state solution.

Okay?
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I don’t want to wade into an argument but if what happened in October 7 horrified and shook you then hasn’t what happened since done the same?

Just looking at the numbers of the dead, isn’t 4000 children enough (not counting the adults) to say that they’ve gone too far and not have this detached well they gotta defend themselves attitude? Where’s that rage?
 
Belittling the significance of antisemitism is a good place to start.
 
So I subscribe to Ground News, which tracks news coverage. It's interesting to see who covers (and doesn't cover) parts of this conflict. A couple of screenshots of partisan bias.

1700156283326.png

1700159628552.png
 
As an aside, I made a passing comment to my friend yesterday about going to see Jessie Ware and how she was screaming Mozel Tov at the crowd and her first response was “did the audience boo?” It struck me then that my best friend (a New York Jew who lives in London) is genuinely concerned about her safety. She is not political and not pro-Israel. But she lives every day saddened by the long term impacts of the war and yes she also hates what is happening out there.

I’m not sure what made me think of that. But I care about the far reaching consequences and I care about antisemitism. But I do believe Netenyahu is at the core of this problem right now and I don’t think he gives a fuck about the bigger picture. Then again, what world leader does?
 
Phoenix said:
I don’t want to wade into an argument but if what happened in October 7 horrified and shook you then hasn’t what happened since done the same?

Just looking at the numbers of the dead, isn’t 4000 children enough (not counting the adults) to say that they’ve gone too far and not have this detached well they gotta defend themselves attitude? Where’s that rage?
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I hate it. Obviously.

But I find this line of questioning extremely uncomfortable and inappropriate
 
gggggg said:
Belittling the significance of antisemitism is a good place to start.
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No. That’s not what happened. What I see happening is antisemitism being prioritised over other forms of racial prejudice, rather than being understood as interconnected harms. I won’t let you turn it into this.
 
Personal attacks won't be tolerated
Beverley said:
No. That’s not what happened. What I see happening is antisemitism being prioritised over other forms of racial prejudice, rather than being understood as interconnected harms. I won’t let you turn it into this.
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Kindly, and with the greatest respect, fuck you.
 
@gggggg has been banned from contributing to the thread for 24 hours.

May I remind everyone regardless of position or opinion to be constructive and respectful to each other.
 
ANYWAY

i think the reason why antisemitism is being prioritized over islamophobia (which is a true statement) is...when October 7 happened, people were running around shooting fireworks and celebrating in Iraq, Syria, Palestine, London, Vienna, Stockholm, etc. etc. we don't see streets flooded with people celebrating the crimes that the Israeli state is committing right now?
 
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There was a pro-Israel rally in Washington DC just a couple of days ago where the crowd was chanting "No ceasefire", what is that but celebrating Israel's current actions?
 
i'm sorry but that's not "celebrating" the murder of innocent civilians. the belief that lies behind their want for the war to continue is that if Hamas is not eradicated, October 7 will keep on repeating. Hamas leaders themselves have said that they PLAN on repeating 7 October until Israel is eliminated.

wanting a country to eliminate a terrorist group, even though it causes the death of many innocent people, is not the same thing as celebrating a terrorist sect murdering innocent civilians with the aim of eradicating Israel AND all Jews.

P.S. i'm pro-ceasefire
 
joanne said:
ANYWAY

i think the reason why antisemitism is being prioritized over islamophobia (which is a true statement) is...when October 7 happened, people were running around shooting fireworks and celebrating in Iraq, Syria, Palestine, London, Vienna, Stockholm, etc. etc. we don't see streets flooded with people celebrating the crimes that the Israeli state is committing right now?
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I think some celebrations were before all the horrific details had come out and it seemed that people in Gaza had broken out of their prison by bulldozing the fences. Some of the celebrations may also have been motivated by antisemitism - there’s no excuse for it. Time and time again, Palestinian activists try to distinguish that their resistance is against the occupation, the Israeli ethnostate, Zionism, not Jewish people, and anyone who doesn’t follow that in supporting Palestine should GTFO.

Btw I’ve never forgotten that image of Israelis gathering around the hills of Sderot in 2014 to watch and celebrate as bombs rained down on Gaza. It’s hard also to forget videos of Israeli singers performing racist and genocidal songs for IOF forces.

—> I gotta go out, I’ll come back to this.
 
Beverley said:
Btw I’ve never forgotten that image of Israelis gathering around the hills of Sderot in 2014 to watch and celebrate as bombs rained down on Gaza. It’s hard also to forget videos of Israeli singers performing racist and genocidal songs for IOF forces.
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you mean this image of literally three Israelis?

Israelis-watch-bombings-o-011.jpg


hundreds of thousands were celebrating 7 October.
 
big ron said:
While I disagree with your viewpoint I respect your right to express it, but you lose all credibility when you just descend into this.
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Exactly. Especially in response to a post which in no way reads as an attempt to diminish antisemitism.

As I've just said in the mod forum, I think debate and oppositional viewpoints absolutely have a place in this thread but, first and foremost, so does mutual respect. The last thread went down the pipes for a reason, I really hope this one can remain constructive.
 
Actually, I think I will take this as my cue to leave this thread and log out of Moopy for the foreseeable. I don't think the discourse in this thread (nor the previous one) is fair nor balanced.
 
joanne said:
you mean this image of literally three Israelis?

Israelis-watch-bombings-o-011.jpg


hundreds of thousands were celebrating 7 October.
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You might need to look at the other pictures and read the sources to know it wasn’t three, Joanne.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

These Israelis Eat Popcorn At 'Sderot Cinema' As They Watch Bombs Fall On Gaza

These Israelis Eat Popcorn At 'Sderot Cinema' As They Watch Bombs Fall On Gaza
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Or you might need to look at the kinds of genocidal celebrations that took place when the US transferred its embassy to Jerusalem.

What’s your source for the ‘hundreds of thousands’ celebrating 7 October? Why is this a credible argument for you to even make when time and time again, we’ve seen peaceful and overwhelmingly sombre protests being mislabelled as hate marches? When pro-Israel marches in the US have had people calling Israel to ‘finish the job’ or abusing Palestine supporters and telling them they should go to Gaza and get raped?
 
Madame Suede said:
I am appalled that gggggg has been banned from posting in this thread.
Really?
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He told another poster to go fuck himself. It’s not about his position but the way he argued it. We understand that it’s a really emotive issue but we’ve repeatedly asked posters to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks in this thread.
 
Madame Suede said:
Actually, I think I will take this as my cue to leave this thread and log out of Moopy for the foreseeable. I don't think the discourse in this thread (nor the previous one) is fair nor balanced.
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If it's any consolation, no forum is "fairly balanced". Not in 2023. Everywhere is an echo chamber, including Moopy, whether people see it or not.
 
Madame Suede said:
Actually, I think I will take this as my cue to leave this thread and log out of Moopy for the foreseeable. I don't think the discourse in this thread (nor the previous one) is fair nor balanced.
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In fairness, we only stepped in as a response to things getting personal and we'd have responded the same way regardless of where the insults were coming from. As long as the debate is healthy and constructive, there's no issue. We won't have things turn into a slanging match.
 
I’m not sure the temporary ban is the best solution here guys, it doesn’t send the best message.

Joanne’s response was all that was needed in that instance.

We’ve all said worse to each other in the past.

That being said, if anyone thinks the discussion is one sided they should absolutely speak up about what the problem is with the discourse. I for one am all ears.
 
I know it's easier said than done but maybe backing off when things get inflamed and recognising when discussions cease to be productive is the way to go (and I'm the worst person for this sometimes).

But I also appreciate that it's impossible for mods to please everyone.
 
Beverley said:
You might need to look at the other pictures and read the sources to know it wasn’t three, Joanne.
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they were literally 19 people.

BsICixqCQAAT17z



meanwhile during October 7,

Tehran:

a05fdc0c-ff98-4baf-8533-8963ec4d2f93.jpg


Gaza:



hundreds of TikToks went viral on the 7th and 8th of October of thousands of people celebrating in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, the UK, France, Sweden, etc. how could you have missed this? i can't be bothered to look for them right now and honestly, i don't want to cause it's so disturbing. look it up on TikTok if you want.

all i'm saying is we see people justifying the Israeli bombardment of Gaza, but not celebrating and cheering for the death of innocent Palestinians in the same way.

didn't "Death to All Jews" trend on Twitter three days ago too?

antisemitism is spreading like wildfire and it's disgusting. just as we stand up against islamophobia, we cannot relativize the antisemitism that disguises itself as "standing up for Palestine."
 
Can we say that the majority of those people were celebrating the slaughter of Jewish civilians, though? and not, instead, the first meaningful resistance against an overwhelmingly more powerful and murderous regime in our lifetimes?

Seriously the bottom line here is that Palestinians have done nothing except... live there. The same way that you and I live in our houses. For that crime they have been brutalized, killed, and expelled from their land since 1947 and any peaceful resistance has been met with violence. We can debate academically about this all day long (which is an immense privilege) but that really is the bottom line.
 
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