George Floyd and the police brutality debate

[Zu]

The demand to be constructive is not helpful. It suggests POC are only useful as long as they serve a purpose and don't make white folk feel uncomfortable.)

That certainly wasn't what I was intending to suggest, so perhaps my choice of words was erroneous. Instead, in your view (given that I wouldn't expect you to respond on another's behalf), what does the statement “There are too many white people in this thread” seek to achieve (or express)?

 

[Ellie]

That certainly wasn't what I was intending to suggest, so perhaps my choice of words was erroneous. Instead, in your view (given that I wouldn't expect you to respond on another's behalf), what does the statement “There are too many white people in this thread” seek to achieve (or express)?

I appreciate the irony of me responding to this. I think some things just don’t apply to everyone and all people need outlets to be able to associate with those with the same experience as them.

Honestly in a broader sense, it’s the same way cis women’s groups don’t really like men piping in on things to do with their menstrual cycle or their choice of birth control - again, another one of my best mates is a gay man who doesn’t have a sister and he seriously thought one pad/tampon would last the whole week until he saw a documentary on it! When it’s something you have never needed to think about, you need educating by just sitting back to listen.

 

[VoR]

Thank you. I think that's a big part of this for me. I find it almost impossible to keep up with everything that I need to know, need to read, need to see in order to be a "good" person. Which makes this fuck up all the worse because I've done the exact thing that I've tried not to do - get overwhelmed and go "fine, I give up, piss off". I can barely keep up with social/political dialogue about being trans.

I think a lot of people feel this way. Let's face it, none of us are perfect when it comes to using the right words and avoiding unconscious bias.

Personally I look at navigating race, gender etc conversations as a CIS white man much the same way I look at trying to speak a foreign language. You're never going to get everything right, and the more you try, the more likely you are to wander into a mistake. But if you approach it wholeheartedly, I think the vast majority of people will appreciate the effort first and foremost - and when you do make a gaffe, try to see it as a learning opportunity rather than an excuse to get defensive and decide to force everyone to speak English in the future because it's the medium that you're most comfortable with.

 

[octophone]

...when you do make a gaffe, try to see it as a learning opportunity rather than an excuse to get defensive and decide to force everyone to speak English in the future because it's the medium that you're most comfortable with.

That's a good parallel.

 

[cwej]

I think a lot of people feel this way. Let's face it, none of us are perfect when it comes to using the right words and avoiding unconscious bias.

Personally I look at navigating race, gender etc conversations as a CIS white man much the same way I look at trying to speak a foreign language. You're never going to get everything right, and the more you try, the more likely you are to wander into a mistake. But if you approach it wholeheartedly, I think the vast majority of people will appreciate the effort first and foremost - and when you do make a gaffe, try to see it as a learning opportunity rather than an excuse to get defensive and decide to force everyone to speak English in the future because it's the medium that you're most comfortable with.

It is a very good parallel.

I completely understand Octy and Zu-Klara's point though. Comments like 'there are too many white people in this thread' are frustrating when all of the white people in this thread are trying to do the right thing - sometimes we might need pointers, but we are allies and we want to help make the situation better, not worse. Now we have in-fighting in a group of people who all want the same thing ultimately.

Anyway, in other news I really liked Trevor Noah's comments on what's happening in America at the moment:

 

[big ron]

Indeed that is a good parallel.

 

[big ron]

I really like the word parallel because it has a lot of parallelity in it.

 

[Suomi]

Thank you. I think that's a big part of this for me. I find it almost impossible to keep up with everything that I need to know, need to read, need to see in order to be a "good" person.

Since I met my partner I think what I've most learnt is to just sit and listen to his experiences without trying to equate them to my own, but just to sit and really listen, as well as asking questions. I think a lot of his frustrations in conversations about race come from his experiences being invalidated by comparisons, or from people not really listening because they are so keen to insert their own take/narrative into it, even if that comes from wanting to be seen as, as you put it, a "good" person.

 

[cwej]

I'm also really shit at languages so it works as a parallel even more for me cos I'm shit at this too.

 

[cwej]

I find it almost impossible to keep up with everything that I need to know, need to read, need to see in order to be a "good" person.

Incidentally: you ARE a good person.

 

[GinAg (39)]

One of the challenges of confronting our own internalised racism is so much of it goes against every extinct we have as humans. Most people believe they are good people, which is seriously threatened when learning about the racism inside us all, which we perceive to be bad. Accepting that all white people are racist is probably a good place to start. I did and it feels horrible. And that's the fucking point.

 

[dUb]

Someone I know has posted the black square today and all I can think about is when they referred to a black Drag Race queen as “a stupid n*g-nog” in conversation with me four years ago.

At the time, I said something the lines of “[NAME], Jesus, you can’t say that” and I got on with the evening, a group night out. It’s been on my mind a lot since. I’m angry about the hypocrisy of him posting the black square today and also ashamed of my own, having been friendly with him on a couple more occasions after that, when we’ve been at the same birthday party for example. I haven’t sought out his company or kept in touch with him since the incident but still following/friends on social media.

I don’t know what to do about it really.

 

[big ron]

One of the challenges of confronting our own internalised racism is so much of it goes against every extinct we have as humans. Most people believe they are good people, which is seriously threatened when learning about the racism inside us all, which we perceive to be bad. Accepting that all white people are racist is probably a good place to start. I did and it feels horrible. And that's the fucking point.

I don't think it necessarily has to feel horrible. I am happy that I have become more aware and more determined to change things. I don't think we can fix things over night but we can certainly do things through the next generation. Considering my Dad's best mate for years was a 6 4 rasta and my best mate at school for years was a kid called SANJEEV I was certainly raised in an environment both at home and school that by today's standards was racist. As I've already highlighted we're still miles away from a balanced curriculum in terms of black and other races history in the UK but through understanding that I have ingrained racism and privilege I'm now more aware I can do more and how. I'm determined to do better by Ron Jr and his peers for the future.

I know its lazy to draw parallels but in the same way I was raised in a homophobic environment. The other day discussing something about his future Ron Jr talked about when he grows up and marries a girl or boy, which to me was a fucking achievement as a parent. I'd have horrified my Dad especially if I'd come out with that at 7 and yet here's my son blissfully unaware that just one generation ago such words would have been considered unutterable. If I can confront the failings of my upbringing and fix those mistakes through his that's something to celebrate surely?

 

[octophone]

Incidentally: you ARE a good person.

Thank you.

 

[octophone]

I don’t know what to do about it really.

I guess the question would be what's changed? Would that person post that today? If we don't allow people the opportunity to improve, we create a different kind of problem.

 

[Logic?]

This is the intelligent conversation that should have been happening from page 1. Not just reposts of the riots etc and I understand no one has done that willingly.


Maybe I overreacted but I had a huge problem with one post in here that made me say “Making assumptions but there’s a lot of white folk in this thread”


But it wasn’t the only thing I said. I said it was encouraging that people are reading books and educating themselves on a topic that is close to my heart and posted a quote I thought was helpful and is often overlooked. And being met with a “piss off if you don’t like it” just angered me.


Ellie and Suomi have just made excellent points on why I made the post about white folks being in this thread. I apologise if that’s made anyone uncomfortable and I don’t want you to feel bad octophone at all it’s not my bag.


But being shot down for that comment is just another kick and I got annoyed that when I posted the video of a black man being racially profiled, one of the first responses I got was a link telling me he in-fact doesn’t work for the FBI. If that’s what you take from the video and you fact check the guys career instead of actually being horrified at the content in the video I just think...wow just wow.


I honestly think I just need to come off the internet and twitter and message boards for a while. I’ve been upset and angry for a week but I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad like at all.

 

[Peekaboo]

Logic, please do not stop posting here, especially if you need to vent out. This forum is for anyone to vent any old shit, let alone something important like this, you have every right to be upset and if that makes other people feel bad it's THEIR PROBLEM.

 

[Logic?]

I guess the question would be what's changed? Would that person post that today? If we don't allow people the opportunity to improve, we create a different kind of problem.

And this is so true but me posting the white folks comments wasn’t me trying to do this so apologises if you think it was. I understand what your saying about it being non productive and not helpful to the conversation so I sincerely apologise for that too.

 

[cwej]

This is the intelligent conversation that should have been happening from page 1. Not just reposts of the riots etc and I understand no one has done that willingly.


Maybe I overreacted but I had a huge problem with one post in here that made me say “Making assumptions but there’s a lot of white folk in this thread”


But it wasn’t the only thing I said. I said it was encouraging that people are reading books and educating themselves on a topic that is close to my heart and posted a quote I thought was helpful and is often overlooked. And being met with a “piss off if you don’t like it” just angered me.


Ellie and Suomi have just made excellent points on why I made the post about white folks being in this thread. I apologise if that’s made anyone uncomfortable and I don’t want you to feel bad octophone at all it’s not my bag.


But being shot down for that comment is just another kick and I got annoyed that when I posted the video of a black man being racially profiled, one of the first responses I got was a link telling me he in-fact doesn’t work for the FBI. If that’s what you take from the video and you fact check the guys career instead of actually being horrified at the content in the video I just think...wow just wow.


I honestly think I just need to come off the internet and twitter and message boards for a while. I’ve been upset and angry for a week but I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad like at all.

Not 'uncomfortable' at all from my perspective but a little frustrated. There comes a point where you have tried all your adult life to make up for the shortcomings of white people and then get thrown back in your face 'white people' this or 'white people' that. I don't feel defensive, because I'm aware of all the things Ag said about acknowledging our innate racism from the social constructs we've been brought up in, but I do feel sometimes maybe there's no point in being an ally if that's the response that you're going to get for trying to help. Maybe we ARE no help. I don't know.

I'm sorry you're feeling upset and angry. This stuff is blowing up so much it's become all-consuming so it's totally understandable you'd feel that way.

 

[Logic?]

Not 'uncomfortable' at all from my perspective but a little frustrated. There comes a point where you have tried all your adult life to make up for the shortcomings of white people and then get thrown back in your face 'white people' this or 'white people' that. I don't feel defensive, because I'm aware of all the things Ag said about acknowledging our innate racism from the social constructs we've been brought up in, but I do feel sometimes maybe there's no point in being an ally if that's the response that you're going to get for trying to help. Maybe we ARE no help. I don't know.

I'm sorry you're feeling upset and angry. This stuff is blowing up so much it's become all-consuming so it's totally understandable you'd feel that way.

Absolutely and I agree with you whole heartedly. I wasn’t saying it in a nasty or oh look at all you white folk way. I wouldn’t have been on this website for nearly 11 years if I thought that’s what you all thought.

Like octophone said about allowing people to improve is so true otherwise the conversations that are being had are going to have very little value or effect and maybe I need to work on not assuming all white people aren’t as informed as a lot of you clearly are. Sorry for causing all this fuss.

 

[ButterTart]

Someone I know has posted the black square today and all I can think about is when they referred to a black Drag Race queen as “a stupid n*g-nog” in conversation with me four years ago.

At the time, I said something the lines of “[NAME], Jesus, you can’t say that” and I got on with the evening, a group night out. It’s been on my mind a lot since. I’m angry about the hypocrisy of him posting the black square today and also ashamed of my own, having been friendly with him on a couple more occasions after that, when we’ve been at the same birthday party for example. I haven’t sought out his company or kept in touch with him since the incident but still following/friends on social media.

I don’t know what to do about it really.

There’s nothing more you CAN do there, honestly. You called it out, which in itself is a start. I know from experience some people are just raised in environments where certain terms are used, and never consciously thought about it being racist/homophobic/misogynist. I have friends who used to use the ‘p’ word around me. I’d politely ask them not to, and eventually they stopped using it altogether (at least in my company). Whether they use it when I’m not there is another issue but, as with your case, there’s nothing hypocritical about still being friends with them as long as you’re not condoning behaviour you know is wrong.

 

[KindaCool]

Downtown Chicago and South Side Chicago are in all out gang wars. Mexican and Black gangs tried to defend their territorial businesses but it was only a matter of time before they overlapped and shit hit the fan. Downtown is trashed af. Even my neighborhood has broken glass all over the streets. This is so fucked up

 

[octophone]

Downtown Chicago and South Side Chicago are in all out gang wars. Mexican and Black gangs tried to defend their territorial businesses but it was only a matter of time before they overlapped and shit hit the fan. Downtown is trashed af. Even my neighborhood has broken glass all over the streets. This is so fucked up

I'll be honest, I didn't know that's where you lived. Serious question - are you safe right now?

 

[KindaCool]

I'll be honest, I didn't know that's where you lived. Serious question - are you safe right now?

Only been here 2 years. Yeah I'm fine. The protests were everywhere, but some of them marched past my apartment.

 

[KindaCool]

There were cops EVERYWHERE.

 

[KindaCool]

And of course my neighborhood, Uptown, got looted and vandalized

 

[COB]

Oh no, not T Mobile!

 

[KindaCool]

I fucking hate looters and vandals. They just use the chaos and misery to behave like the animals that they are. These neighborhoods are already blighted and their communities have struggled for generations. The last thing they need is some dimwit with a bat destroying their spaces and shops.

 

[Ellie]

Anna Kendrick had a bit of a point

 

[cwej]

I'm actually kinda proud of how this thread started off with some difficult and slightly heated moments where people were struggling to see eye to eye but managed to come round to a place of listening and trying to understand each other, all in the space of 5 pages. If only the rest of the world was like Moopy.

Anywhere else on the internet it would have turned into a full on slanging match.

 

[KindaCool]

If only the rest of the world was like Moopy

Wouldn't go THAT far.

 

[Alla]

Thank god for Farrah Abraham





And Pink

 

[COB]

Genuinely can't tell if you're being ironic or not with that Farrah Abraham post

 

[KindaCool]

"I’m blessed there’s people like me"

Same tbh.

 

[Beverley]

I started writing a post but I have semi abandoned it. I was nowhere finished but it was HUGE. I exhaust even myself sometimes.

 

[Beverley]

MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!!

i wrote this huge thing and it didn't fucking post. now i'm going to have to go back and re-edit that fucking thing all over again

 

[Beverley]

oh i can't bring myself to do it.

 

[vespertine]

oh i can't bring myself to do it.

Write it via fountain pen and scroll and then take a pic of it.

 

[Beverley]

Okay, this is the salvaged version so, apologies, it ain't as good:

- white people need to stop congratulating themselves for managing ONE successful conversation about race (in which they mostly shared how the task of anti-racism daunts THEM).

- we ALL, but in this context WHITE PEOPLE, need to move away from this obsession with seeing ourselves as good. it obstructs our learning. it derails important conversations about race. fuck being good. focus on the work.

- white people need to understand the level of distrust that exists amongst communities of colour. i have been let down by many white people, including on this forum. (it's also why i don't fully trust leftist movements and class-based organising). you don't need to flagellate yourselves, nor should you complain that you're trying really hard (not when you had to be SCHOOLED in a drag race thread a couple of weeks ago). you don't deserve a gold star. nor should you yearn for our approval. if you're genuine about being anti-racist, know your history, know your shit, be humble and keep divesting yourselves of your privilege

- but also understand this distrust continues because of the way that racism adapts and evolves. people are very good at appropriating anti-racist language without actually doing anything, especially because it is so easy to look 'good' doing it on social media. so there will always be this tension over whether white people are performing solidarity for themselves. i wrote a cunty message on fb about people putting black squares on their social media cos that shit is MEANINGLESS. it's partly why i suggested the donation, to channel the frustration and the hand-wringing of this thread into something concrete

- white people really need to think about WHO they are listening to, when and why. invariably, ya'll resort to microaggressions when a poc speaks up about their experience, but when a fellow white person confirms the same thing, you actually listen. like this, even conversations about racism become these circuses where white people police the gates and hold the centre

- i called Moopy a white liberal forum rather than a leftist forum, because it is essential to the white liberal condition that you can choose how, when, where and for how long you see race. you decide when racism exists, when it doesn't, when it serves you to deploy stereotypes and racist logic, when a community has 'legitimate questions' to answer. white liberalism is ultimately grounded in self interest, and defending those interests is paramount.

- what i said earlier about the police is the perfect example of this. i questioned the idea that the police provide safety - when the police do not necessarily protect the black body, the brown body, the trans body, the differently-abled body - only for my critique to be labelled 'childish'. but if you're only point is that YOU have not been subjected to the state's violence, that you feel safe under the state, that the state's racist and homophobic logic and brutalising of certain communities for decades has no relevance to you, then not only is that the epitome of white liberals erasure - but it raises far more important questions about how we can operate a system of solidarity? the first rule has to be white ppl building credibility and creating trust. but white people keep throwing pocs under the bus.

- re: policing for my little @Gangsta Nancy Lam (I saw your valuable question before you deleted) - there are two separate questions here: 1. should the police be allowed to participate in Pride in uniform and 2. should pride parades be policed to ensure our security? Re: the former, I don't want the racist, homophobic institution that is the police to be celebrated in Pride. i don't want to erase what they did in stonewall. but also, fuck stonewall, i know that the only body that is safe at pride with these fuckers around is the cis, white, able-bodied body. Re: the latter, there are alternatives to the police, such as better stewarding, community policing and external security arrangements, but these are obviously underdeveloped

- i think what you should all be thinking about isn't just systemic racism, but the operation of white supremacy, and specifically, whiteness. why is it that we all crave proximity to whiteness? why do we know that our lives will be better the closer we are aligned to it. but more interestingly to me, what is it about whiteness that has you treating yourselves as the repositories of authority, neutrality and knowledge? why is it that you grew up believing that you were the centre, that you were inherently good, and why is that goodness so fragile when disrupted? all i know is that i did not grow up with that kind of messaging. so maybe it doesn't hurt so much when i fuck up and expose my ignorance. or when it does hurt, it's because of my own expectations rather than what i have grown up imbibing from society about myself.

- finally, i just have to acknowledge that i am a POC, but i am not Black. i also have to address my own complicity in and benefit from anti-blackness. i'm trying to do the same work as everyone else. and maybe that's why i pushed myself to donate a decent amount of money to the bail funds - to feel like i was doing more than the mental work and the creating spaces, which, at this particular moment, feels less urgent. but i have taken a lot of space in this thread, so i'll shut up for a while.

 

[Tetris-Rock]

Since I met my partner I think what I've most learnt is to just sit and listen to his experiences without trying to equate them to my own, but just to sit and really listen, as well as asking questions. I think a lot of his frustrations in conversations about race come from his experiences being invalidated by comparisons, or from people not really listening because they are so keen to insert their own take/narrative into it, even if that comes from wanting to be seen as, as you put it, a "good" person.

This is such a good point, and I know I am guilty of equivocating my experiences. I think there is a strong point to be made at the moment for solidarity between non-black LGBT people and black people in and outside of our community, but you have to strike a fine balance when making that point and making sure black experiences remain centred.

- white people really need to think about WHO they are listening to, when and why. invariably, ya'll resort to microaggressions when a poc speaks up about their experience, but when a fellow white person confirms the same thing, you actually listen.

Watched a video yesterday from Bob the Drag Queen and Peppermint about this very point. They were rightly saying that this is why white people with a platform, queens in particular, need to break their silence and take advantage of the fact that people listen to them. While of course using that platform to hold up black voices also.